APC UPS units - troubleshooting

[Per Hansson]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

here is one of the emergency power rooms on a cruise ship. (ships have UPS also) They also had a brand new emergency generator which at 2000 rpm was fucking loud.

Wanna play the "drop a wrench" game in there?

Things go boom

[kc8adu]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

those look like wet nicd/nimh.
thats a bunch of money sittng there.
btw look at the front battery in your pic.
notice the less melted cell top left?
thats likely the first dead cell.
the constant voltage charger will happily dump current up to its preset limit into the batts even as cells short.
the remaining good cells hit thermal runaway and melt due to the overcharge.

[bgavin]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

Is there any good reason why 12v UPS units could not use external automobile batteries?

[Per Hansson]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

Is there any good reason why 12v UPS units could not use external automobile batteries?

No

Not unless you overload the charging circuit, but as has been seen from our UPS'es here it's likley to be the other way around

But also remember that automotive batteries do not do well if you discharge them, they should only be allowed to run down to 70% capacity or so and then get charged directly...

[kc8adu]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

Is there any good reason why 12v UPS units could not use external automobile batteries?

no.
the apc units are the best for use with external batteries.
and even a car battery will last a long time as its mostly on float with an occasional discharge.
i like to add a fan to keep it cooler.

[gonzo0815]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

Some car batteries are not desinged for a complete discharge.
The lead is transformed into leadsulphat during discharging, and it needs more space than lead.
If the batterie is not desinged for deep discharge, the sulphate will dammage the insulator and the lead plates geometry.

From my experience, the higher grade car batteries tolerate the deepdischarging, if they are not stored in this condition over a long periode.
An other option would be solar batteries.

[bgavin]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

I was thinking about using one of those marine deep-cycle batteries, and one of my APC SmartUPS boxes.

[hardwareguy]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

I'd stay away from car staring batteries, they don't like to be discharged. Marine/RV batteries should be fine but sometimes you can get a good deal on AGM batteries and I like these the best.

The only other potential problem I can see with adding a big battery to a UPS is with the little consumer grade units with inverters that look a little flimsy. Some may be designed to only operate for a few minutes before overheating, in this case the tiny battery the small UPS comes with discharges before the circuit overheats. This should only apply to the cheesy UPS units for home computers, the REAL units like the Smart UPS will handle a nice battery upgrade quite happily.

As for battery bulging, I have seen it in almost any UPS brand, Tripp-Lite, APC, MinuteMan, you name it. I carry a tiny crowbar with me on battery change calls now.....

[jbbenson]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

Hate to thread hijack here, but I've got an APC SmartUPS 1400 (2U Rackmount) that is stuck with the voltage trim function active. Incoming line voltage is about 123VAC, but the unit reports it as 137V. If I connect the UPS to my variac and drop the line voltage down to about 107, the trim turns off, and the UPS reads normal line voltage. Something is jacked in the sense circuit.... my bets are on a bad solder joint, resistor or capacitor. It has worked fine in the past, and occasionally (rarely) will function properly. Anyone have an idea where to start looking?

[willawake]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting



another different china brand found in a brand new APC ups. the funny thing is they put all these APC stickers on the battery but it would probably cost nothing to get them APC branded at the factory....

here is what they have in the shop today



its a Fujitron FN-1272 12v 7.2Ah sealed lead-acid rechargeable battery
the shopkeeper has put all his faith in Fujitron now........he says they are made in japan...my ass....anyway there is no reference in google for this model or company....except this post shortly......

at the moment i am thinking the Back-ups RS are better at not overcharging the batteries than the smart-ups. i dont recall changing batteries in any RS yet and i have some over 3 years.

[Rubycon]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

Wanna play the "drop a wrench" game in there?

Things go boom

I like it when it goes boom!

http://media.putfile.com/boom-42-78

[kc8adu]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

anyone else notice the blatent ripoff on fujitsu?

another different china brand found in a brand new APC ups. the funny thing is they put all these APC stickers on the battery but it would probably cost nothing to get them APC branded at the factory....

here is what they have in the shop today



its a Fujitron FN-1272 12v 7.2Ah sealed lead-acid rechargeable battery
the shopkeeper has put all his faith in Fujitron now........he says they are made in japan...my ass....anyway there is no reference in google for this model or company....except this post shortly......

at the moment i am thinking the Back-ups RS are better at not overcharging the batteries than the smart-ups. i dont recall changing batteries in any RS yet and i have some over 3 years.

[willawake]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

hmm one of the rack apc make battery warning
all batteries test 13.33v though

fucking POS

[arneson]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

I know that horrible baked battery smell.It's caustic yet suptle.
All the APC's here have had sets of batteries,
but it's cheap insurance for the protection value.

[felix]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

Is there any case that a faulty/old battery can cause an "Internal Error" alarm (All indicators lit simultaneously) on an APC UPS?
Has anyone experienced anything like that and maybe with a battery replacement things came back to normal?

[arneson]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

All the manuals are here, check in the troubleshooting of your unit.
The big ones can report internal fuses and breakers out.
Very likely that it is just bad bats though.
http://www.apc.com/

[felix]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

Thank you for your reply, i have already looked in the hardcopy of the unit's manual...

I contacted APC support and they answered that an "Internal Fault Error" is probably a board fault...I measured the battery voltage with my DMM and it is 13.6V, to exclude some battery originated trouble...

After searching the inside of the ups unit for visible flaws, i discovered only this :





Seems to me that 10Ω R150 resistor (left of the yellow cable) has a small crack in the middle, with a brownish colour...could be burnt ? I'm asking cause i haven't seen a burbt resistor, so i don't know how it would look like...


In the meantime i'll try to borrow an almost out-of-the-box battery from a friend to exclude the battery fault...

Thank you again

[andrew77]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

This looks like it might be relevant to you: link

[Krankshaft]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

If that resistor bothers you just measure it with a DMM if it's within 10% tolerance it's fine.

If it's shorted or open it will be a pretty obvious reading.

There always is the chance that it is in circuit with other components so it may not read exactly in the 10 ohms area.

I have seen metal oxide resistors (on the convergence amps) on RPTVs break like that. Just a fine crack down the body but they are through hole components.

I would say in an given enough current in an overcurrent condition those puppies would vaporize or at least char pretty good.

[willawake]

Re: APC UPS units - troubleshooting

just to recap, i had one rack APC Smart UPS make battery warning. the batteries measured 13.33v.

and to add

later i had a smart ups 1000 do the same shit. repeatedly.

both units were using powersonic batteries.

i made experiment with the 2x7ah of the 1000 ups. i put individually on a bright 12v bulb. one battery discharged in 1 hour ok. the other bulged after half an hour. these batteries are only 1 year old.

this leads me to believe the powersonic are not so good batteries.

on the other hand i recently replaced battery in an apc cs which i was pleased to see had done 4 years service. the battery was not bulged.

this is the same experience with my apc rs 1000 which i have at home. eventually i replaced the batteries at 3 years even though it was not necessary.

so in conclusion
i am not happy with powersonic presently
my experience over the years leads me to believe the smart ups units are not dealing with the batteries in a gentle manner whilst the other apc units are.

i would also like to add that ups backup in an office environment should be specified according to real requirements as batteries are expensive. ie two batteries is 2x the cost and maybe its not needed.

i have found another supplier which provides CSB batteries. there is not much choice here. i will go for those in order to continue the research.