The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

[PCBONEZ]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

I think that if there were a way to determine a -realistic- number for estimated life span it would simply be put in the data tables.

I'm not saying Endurance isn't a useful number.
I'm saying most people use it the wrong way because they don't understand where it comes from or what it means.

All Endurance really says is: "you can abuse it 'at least' 'this long' without breaking it".

Unless there is a problem (crap PSU, crap caps present elsewhere on the board, inadequate cooling) in normal use even low Endurance caps will last longer than the useful lifetime of the equipment anyway so for me Endurance is the last (or not even a) consideration when selecting caps.

I'm not intending to drag anyone down here.
I'm just stating what -I- look at when choosing my own caps.
-
Endurance might matter in 2 or 3 years but that's about when I'd be upgrading the system anyway. In the mean time what matters is Ripple and ESR. So that's what I care about.

You pick your caps and I'll pick mine.
Don't worry. Be happy.
Live long and prosper. (or something like that)

.

[gonzo0815]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

If the ambient temp is low, may be not more than 45°c, then i may agree.
In non SMPS or similar low ripple applications may be too.
When higher temps or ultra low esr caps are used, then i certainly would take the endurance in to account.

As we have seen early failures of ultra low esr capacitors even with the good brands ( Rubycon MCZ, UCC KZG, KZE and may be KC8`S failed FM ) i would take it seriously.
Similar is the fact, that even ultra cheap crap capacitors like FuHiyu can last very long, if kept beyond a certain threshold of ambient temperature.
If not, they degrade very fast (<1 year).

At least Rubycon is still referring to Rhenius law in their appnote to calculate Endurance. And this is the way, an engineer or designer should have to go.
In this formula, even the small difference of 1000h @105°c is a significant factor.
So i would simply call it a failure, to put a ultra low esr cap with 2k endurance into a environment, where the guaranteed endurance will not be sufficient for the projected lifetime of the appliance.
The above stated generalization 2000h capacitor =5yr is from my point of view not applicable in demanding application.
Sure, the endurance does not mean, that the capacitor has lost it`s whole function, it depends on the circuit and the margin the designer has left.
Considering SOHO IT appliances, i am not that confident, if there is some.


I agree, that it is probably not that realistic to calculate a lifetime based on Rhenius law for more then five years, as this is certainly not proven for any of the recent series.
And sure, there are some safety margins calculated into the guaranteed endurance. But at least for me it is obviouse, that an Panasonic FC is probably more conservatively rated then a Rubycon MCZ.

There are some ultra high endurance high volt caps available, it is the Panasonic ED series with 12000h.
This capacitors are especially recommended for electronic ballasts, where the cap will be placed in the soket of the lamp.

If endurance would not mater, then i think no manufacturer would pay the hefty price tag they have.
And i have seen a lot of those CFL flickering or going dim due to dried up Capxon or even Rubycon capacitors well b4 the advertised lifetime of the lamp.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

I can see how you got where you got then.
I don't consider endurance.

To me the endurance rating isn't a very practical (realistic) number.
First they don't test the capacitors to failure so it's an 'at least this long' rating. [not a max] - It says "We can abuse it xxxx many hours and it will still work properly."
xxxx is CHOSEN by the testers before the test is done and is not determined by the testing. (Which is why they are all in thousands of hours: 1000, 2000, 3000, ..... )
-
It does nothing practical towards telling us how long the cap last in a real world environment.
-
Yes you can use endurance and do the math to find expected life span but that's almost useless because it's so inaccurate.
-
I've forgotten which but one of the major manufactures (good caps brand) gives calculations of life span based on the endurance a "60% level of confidence" (their words.) This is because so many of the inputs to the equation are taken for other equations that give low precision results.
(Many inaccurate variables gives an even less accurate result.)
-
So, even if you do all the math and come up with say 5 years, it doesn't mean the cap will last 5 years. It means it will last somewhere between 3 and 7 years.
[ 5 years +/- 40%.]
-
So lets say we compare a 2000hr [5yr] cap and a 4000hr [10yr] cap.
5yr + 40% = 7yr
10yr - 40% = 6yr
-
In the real world the 2000hr cap may last longer than a 4000hr cap.

.

[yanz]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

Heya PCBONEZ It's just that Ripple and ESR isn't the only things in my mind, FM series has far superior endurance..

But if we rule out the endurance than you're right. I guess, performance is performance and endurance is endurance. FC -> FK -> FM -> FJ it is. Like you said..

Any mods there, care to edit my post there? (change it to "FC -> FK -> FM -> FJ")
I really don't mind, thx in advance.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

Correcting typo:

FJ - 6.3v 3300uF 12.5x20 - 2800/.012
FM - 6.3v 3300uF 12.5x20 - 2600/.018
FJ has better the Ripple and ESR than FM.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

Thanks I have the data sheets on file and I'm aware of what's in them:
You obviously haven't checked them because you are wrong.

Comparing same volt, uF, and can sizes:

FJ - 6.3v 1000uF 10x12.5 - 1540/.025
FM - 6.3v 1000uF 10x12.5 - 1290/.038
FJ has better the Ripple and ESR than FM.

FJ - 6.3v 3300uF 12.5x20 - 2800/.012
FM - 6.3v 1000uF 12.5x20 - 2600/.018
FJ has better the Ripple and ESR than FM.

FJ - 10v 1000uF 8x20 - 1870/.016
FM - 10v 1000uF 8x20 - 1560/.030
FJ has better the Ripple and ESR than FM.

FJ - 16v 1000uF 10x20 - 2550/.013
FM - 16v 1000uF 10x20 - 2180/.019
FJ has better the Ripple and ESR than FM.

This is 100% consistant.
The only time FM is better than FJ (for a given uF/v) is if the FM is in a bigger can.
- That's not the proper way to compare two series of capacitors.

So it's just as I said:

FC -> FK -> FM -> FJ

.
.

[kc8adu]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

these pics confirm the fj i have here are counterfeits.
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4600

Panasonic FJ Capacitor

For more than a year we had been questioning about its data specification. We see them in a lot of modern motherboards (even cheap board like ECS) and vga card (especially powercolor). Thanks to Willawake, he found the FJ datasheet that Panasonic it self hide it for no reason.

It turns out that this caps is for real, from Panasonic, and many motherboards/vga card manufacturers use it because it is comparable to: Chemicon KZG (good cap), Rubycon MBZ (good cap), Nichicon HM (it's badcaps in past time).

So if you found this FJ cap on a motherboard or vga card you want to choose, fear not, they are good caps.









Datasheet:
Panasonic FJ Capacitor
Made in Malaysia

Another thread about FJ capacitor you'll find on this badcaps forum:

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1801
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=720


So, performance grade of panasonic alumunium electrolytic capacitor series (lower to greater):


FC -> FK -> FJ -> FM

[PCBONEZ]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

Panasonic FJ Capacitor

So, performance grade of panasonic alumunium electrolytic capacitor series (lower to greater):

FC -> FK -> FJ -> FM

~ No ~

FM is less than Ruby MBZ
FJ is more than MBZ but less than MCZ

It goes:

FC -> FK -> FM -> FJ

I 'think' FL = FJ but I only have data on two sizes of FL.

.

.

[yanz]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

United Chemicon LXJ




[ Chemicon LXJ Capacitor Datasheet[/url]

[yanz]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

United Chemicon LXZ




United Chemicon LXZ Capacitor Datasheet

[yanz]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

Panasonic HFQ

This series is used to be popular for audiophile. Now it is discontinued. Recommended replacement are Panasonic FC.





Panasonic HFQ Capacitor Datasheet
Discontinuation Notice

[yanz]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

Sanyo WX



(Sanyo WX capacitor 1000uF 10v, size 8mm x 20mm (DxL), impedance 0.041ohm, endurance 3000hrs @ 105C)

Sanyo WX capacitor datasheet

[yanz]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

Sanyo WG


(Sanyo WG capacitor 3300uF 10v, size 10mm x 23mm (DxL), impedance 0.012ohm, endurance 4000hrs @ 105C)






(Same Sanyo WG caps but with different bungs, read here. Both are okay though.)



(Photo from recapping of an ECS K7SOM v7.5c motherboard)


Sanyo WG capacitor datasheet

[yanz]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

Nichicon PW








Nichicon PW is smaller than PL. In this picture, PW cap is in the middle.

Nichicon PW Capacitor Datasheet

[yanz]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

Here is the Panasonic FK Capacitor datasheet:

[killjoy]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

Nichicon PL and PM (1st pic)
Dark brown jacket with grey text, white datecode. Normal X-shaped vent.

Panasonic FK (2nd and 3rd pic)
Dark blue jacket with gold text, red datecode. T-shaped vent.

I use mostly Nichicon PL/PM but just got some Panasonic FKs for places requiring smaller can sizes.

Has anybody got a datasheet for leaded type Panasonic FK?

[yanz]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

Panasonic FJ Capacitor

For more than a year we had been questioning about its data specification. We see them in a lot of modern motherboards (even cheap board like ECS) and vga card (especially powercolor). Thanks to Willawake, he found the FJ datasheet that Panasonic it self hide it for no reason.

It turns out that this caps is for real, from Panasonic, and many motherboards/vga card manufacturers use it because it is comparable to: Chemicon KZG (good cap), Rubycon MBZ (good cap), Nichicon HM (it's badcaps in past time).

So if you found this FJ cap on a motherboard or vga card you want to choose, fear not, they are good caps.









Datasheet:
Panasonic FJ Capacitor
Made in Malaysia

Another thread about FJ capacitor you'll find on this badcaps forum:

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1801
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=720


So, performance grade of panasonic alumunium electrolytic capacitor series (lower to greater):


FC -> FK -> FJ -> FM

[trodas]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

Nichicon HZ (top Nichicon model and by specs, far superior electrolyte cap ever) in my Sapphire "Grouper" A9RX480 mainboard









(the 3300uF 10V one is Nichicon HD one - still very good cap, yet HZ is the king of caps )

Nichicon HZ 1800uF 16V - impedance 0.006.5 - ripple current 4140 (2000 hours) 10x25
Nichicon HD 2200uF 16V - impedance 0.018 - ripple current 2770 (5000 hours) 12.5x25

[yanz]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

United Chemicon LXY





They are not the lowest ESR on Chemicon Series caps, but suitable for PSU or VRM input. They have long endurance. For smaller size and almost same spec (almost same shiny color too), use Chemicon LXZ.

[willawake]

Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

WARNING!!!

UCC KZG was later found out to be a BAD cap, along with UCC KZJ. They do not handle heat well and should ALWAYS be replaced. Lesson: component reliability is only proven after years of service.

United Chemicon KZG