3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

[mockingbird]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

I wasn't aware you went through with the custom KYx order in the end... Please let us know the details and post some pics!!!

[Behemot]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

Not yet, so far I bought "only" some types from the datasheet, D10x20 mm into displays, set-top boxes and so. They have higher capacity than KY and as I already run out of some of them…

Interestign fact though, they use different style of bottom seal for different voltages. I haven't noticed this before…

[trodas]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

Pre-production (betas) of Samxon caps also used different bottom seal that later, production versions. Normal stuff.

However as far, as the discussion of what cap is best to replace in PSU in terms of ESR and ripple currents, then for Enermax Liberty PSU design I proven, that even low ESR caps could work well.

Case in point - Enermax 620W Liberty PSU. I have two of them. One I recapped in about 2007 or so, and used Samxon GD caps for the output (4x 3300uF 6.3V and 2x 2200uF 16V - all d10).

The not recapped one was recapped todays. I run out of the GD Samxons and cannot wait (the PSU is really hardly working, lol, the caps are really bad by now) for the Nichicon replacements, but when I look at the specs - even a Samxon GC can be used for the 3.3 and 5V rails, because:

Samxon GD 2800mA 12mOhm
Samxon GC 2885mA 11mOhm
Nichicon HW 2900mA 17mOhm

So, since I tested and proven the Samxons GD to be good in this PSU (currently the PSU powering a 3.4GHz P4 - what better proof one can ask for?), then the difference between GC are minimal in fact.
The HW Nichicons seems to have notably higher ERS, that might be beneficial, so they are not as "sharp" as the Samxons, yet still they claim that the cap could safely pull 2900mA - well, we see in the next Enermax Liberty 620W recap, as my friend got in the very same need - the PSU is "gone" and need recapping, so I use the Nichicons HW/HN then:


Enermax Liberty 620W (Digikey)
---------------------
1x 390uF 400V d25 x 45 - Pannasonic TS-UQ d25 x 50 P11903-ND
4x 3300uF 10V d10 x 34 - Nichicon HW 3300uF 6.3V d10 493-6884-ND
2x 3300uF 16V d10 x 34 - Nichicon HN 1800uF 16V d10 UHN1C182MPD-ND
1x 1500uF 10V d10 x 23 - Nichicon HD 1500uF 10V d10 UHD1A152MPD-ND
1x 1000uF 10V d8 x 18 - Nichicon HM 1000uF 10V d8 UHM1A102MPD9-ND
1x 470uF 25V d8 - Nichicon HE 470uF 16V d8 493-1552-ND
1x 22uF 50V - Nichicon HE 22uF 50V d5 493-1603-ND
5x 10uF 50V - Nichicon PW 10uF 50V d5 493-1890-ND
5x 2.2uF 50V - Panny FC P10313-ND

Might be better to replace the Nichicon HD 1500uF 10V with HE version, as it is directly near the heatsink... but so are most of these poor caps, so it is a good idea to cool them down The input 50mm big cap is exactly the same height as the heatsink, so, no worries. It will fit

[Behemot]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

Were the previous caps still OK or already bloated? May have been interesting to take measurement before and after for comparison.

Anyway, since we are now dealing with clicking of 400- and 500W version and from what I've read, the 620W one was the worst from these three and also quite often blew up together with half of the computer. Do you have any information about this matter? Was the exploding problem related only to the known bad glue getting conductive, or may it be also with the PFC clicking?

[trodas]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

No, not even bulging are they. However the stability is just not there...

Measuring would be great, however most of my things are stolen, including the scope, and year after the police did not move a finger to get my things returned to me, courts did not moved a finger, etc. So I cannot wait anymore, I had to do it, even when I could take a valuable measures...

I was thinking about creating a serious dummy testing load, but since I did not have my scope, nor the PSU connectors to be need to create this thing, I give up.

The cold air blowing out of the PSU, even it is powering a Opteron 148 + 8600GT under load is IMHO a good reafirmation, that things are working smoothly.

Clicking usually means that the overload protection went on. So something is seriously bad. BTW, this PSU line cannot be turned on on most dummy loads. It require being loaded on 12V rail and it also require IIRC the PowerGood signal. W/o this it click and turn itself off ASAP.
All the Liberty line is plagued by the bad caps (except input one, but I still like the 470uF Panny TS-ED there over the Hitachi 390uF), so I did not be surprised by anything with it, but on the other hand, the number of protections build into these PSUs make these reports hard to believe.
But I cannot say for myself, because both my 620W Libertys are not the originals anymore. Not by a long shot, lol.

Back in 2008 I created PC for my friend with this PSU too (third one that I have a good contact with) and he turned down my offer long time ago to recap it. He remember this offer back in summer 2013, when the PC it stoped working - power on, click and power off itself. Of course this is the PSU and caps in it. But the question is, how bad the mainboard get it from these crap caps.
I'm somewhat confident that I can recap the PSU and make it working well again, but I cannot and will not know the impact this had on the mainboard... till I see it and test it.

No glue conductivity I encounter yet, but I will see his PSU in short time, so I can take a look and measure the glue conductivity.

[Behemot]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

BTW, this PSU line cannot be turned on on most dummy loads. It require being loaded on 12V rail and it also require IIRC the PowerGood signal.

Umm? PG is for motherboard to turn on. And it works quite good without any load. I have ordered high-voltage probe for my O-scope so I'll take some measurement of the PFC/primary as soon as I get it. Will also try under my load tester to see what it does or does not.

[Behemot]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

Just if you are interested guys, I have just enough of the cryptofascist idiots at eBay. It's complicated, broken all the time, expensive and provides basically no support.

I am moving everything to Bonanza. I'll also add more stuff than just capacitors, mainly stickers and plates, possibly mugs etc. with automotive, weapons and similar themes.

[mockingbird]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

Question: Do you know if Samxon would still do custom orders of GA/GC/GD caps now that most Ultra-Low ESR series are being discontinued?

Oddly enough, I had Nichicon HN caps from August 2013. I thought Nichicon was discontinuing them...

[Behemot]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

Yeah, I'd like to know that as well. Going to ask…

I think I've seen Topcat somewhere around saying they are still taking orders for HN/HM. Or was that Rubycon MBZ/MCZ?

[mockingbird]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

Please post back... Must be HN/HM, but I wonder for how much longer... Haven't seen new Rubycons in eons, but maybe it's just as well, as I was starting to see negative reports of their latest batches of MCZ.

[Behemot]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

I think you can still get old but genuine on eBay, clicky. I got some MBZs (2006) and Pannies FJ (76IVJA, whatever that is) here, MBZs measure 3100-3200, FJs even 3500 uF.

[mockingbird]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

7 - 2007
6 - June
IV - Fourth Week
JA - Batch Code

Yea, I've gotten some great deals on eBay on Panasonic stock from 2007/2008... Still, I want to stock higher value caps in only HN/MCZ/GC or better class seeing as how they can be both used when they are needed and also when a lower class cap is required... HZ/GA/MFZ class caps - I've only ever seen MFZ used in Xbox360 so they're pretty much not worth it if the price is too much higher...

I know Samxon's minimum custom order is 1000... I wonder if they'd agree to combine that with several batches... So let's say 200 of each of the most common values/sizes. I'd totally go in on that.

[Behemot]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

I think FJ are quite comparable to HN?

Anyway, been told only available are some GD, GA/GC are discontinued. Which types would you like?

EDIT: got new company profile, seems they have some new industrial-type snap-in caps, new multi-layer products, more pen-cap types, polymers up to 200 V and Li-Ion cells and packs.

[trodas]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

trodas -

BTW, this PSU line cannot be turned on on most dummy loads. It require being loaded on 12V rail and it also require IIRC the PowerGood signal.

Behemot -

Umm? PG is for motherboard to turn on. And it works quite good without any load. I have ordered high-voltage probe for my O-scope so I'll take some measurement of the PFC/primary as soon as I get it. Will also try under my load tester to see what it does or does not.

Then you don't have a functioning Enermax 620W Liberty PSU. Period. Simple as that.

To explain my statement:
1) I have a simple home-made PSU tester, that does switch the PSUs by PSTR signal grouded (pin 14)
http://s22.postimg.org/ppcma1bch/zdroje.jpg
http://s22.postimg.org/6hphdft0x/PSU_atx_connector.gif

2) This works for most of the PSUs, but NOT for both of mine Enermax 620W Liberty PSUs. They start and then click and it immediatelly stop. If your PSU works, then it is not true Enermax and there is no talking around it.

3) That behaviour is possibly only by the PSU checking loads, power good signal or 12V special CPU line check. Since the PSU can power a ATX mainboard that did not use the special 12V line, then we can rule it out, right?
Since the PSUs tester load by 1A the 12V, 5V and 3.3V lines, then what else that power good signal is left?


Regardless of that, since you admited that your "Enermax" is some cheapo shit that did not actually have the Enermax Liberty lines and overloads protections and checks, then all your results with this particular PSU is absolutely meaningless.
That is the hard truth, but before you try talk yourself of this fiasco, then I should remind you that I'm not going to argue over something I experienced first hand - and that this PSU cannot be turned on by my testing tool, but it run fine on any mainboard

[Behemot]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

WTF are you talking about? One of your fairy tales? Jeez. „True Enermax Liberty“

That 620W model was one of the worst Enermax PSUs in history so they did several revisions and than ditched it in favour of more succesful 400- and 500W models. More succesfull = they did not burn itself and half of the computer with them so often as 620 did.

[mockingbird]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

I think FJ are quite comparable to HN?

No. AFAIK, FJ/FJZ/FJS/FL is equal to or very slightly better than HM

Anyway, been told only available are some GD, GA/GC are discontinued. Which types would you like?

Not surprised. Their electrolyte source dried up (No pun intended - they were probably getting it from Nichicon).

From GD? Nothing... Quite frankly, there is a plethora of NOS Rubycon MBZ and Panasonic FJx floating around.

For GC/HN/MCZ type caps, I'll list the most common caps for motherboard re-capping that should suffice for almost any motherboard repair. These will be the caps that may be difficult to find in the future once their manufacture has ceased.

8mm (Cap, what it can be used to substitute)
6.3V 1800uF (6.3 1500uF)
16V 1000uF

10mm caps
6.3V 1800uF (6.3V 1500uF)
16V 1800uF (16V 1200uF, 16V 1500uF)
6.3V 2200uF
6.3V 3300uF

There is one intended omission, that is 8mm 6.3V 1000uF caps are needed in HM/MBZ/GD class because there is no 11.5mm high equivalent in the HN series. The 15mm height can be a problem when installed near PCI or PCIe slots as they can interfere with videocard heatsinks.

Also note that 10V caps are completely unecessary as Ultra-Low ESR motherboard caps are only needed for the 12V, 5V, and 3.3V rails. (The same actually also applies to main secondary output filtering caps on PSUs, yuo really only need either 6.3V or 16V caps for the big secondary filtering caps).

EDIT: got new company profile, seems they have some new industrial-type snap-in caps, new multi-layer products, more pen-cap types, polymers up to 200 V and Li-Ion cells and packs.

You're talking about ManYue, right? Yes, there polymers are excellent IMO, and are exclusively used on inexpensive MSI boards. I wonder what the price differences are between X-Con polymers and UCC PSx or Nichicon Rx polymers.

[Behemot]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

It's 2800 vs. 3190 mA, really that much of difference? If you need la creme de la creme, you can just swap them for polymers, it will be more than equal, probably better.

I use these caps as well so I know the most used ones, was just asking if you want all of them or some special also, like short D10 and so. As for 1000uF D8 caps, I've bought 1000 pcs of Rubycon MBZ some time back so I'll probably have just enough of them till the end of times.

[mockingbird]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

If the motherboard was using HN-class caps, I'm not going to put HM instead... True, the difference is minimal and it would probably work, but it's just unprofessional... Yea, I was hoping Samxon would take custom orders for these, it looks like you're right about being forced to use polymers in the future.

Also, I forgot to include 16V 470uF HN caps and 6.3V 1000uF HN 15mm caps (And I'd also be somewhat interested in a HM/GD run of 6.3V 1000uF for their 11.5mm height, which also makes them quite suitably interchangeable with 820uF)... I should also include 16V 1200uF caps in 10mm, 1800uF is probably a bit too high to use.

I wonder if Nichicon is still taking orders for HN or have they already been discontinued. Would anyone be interested in a group buy?

[Behemot]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

I have just run into NCC KYB line, it has higher ripple than KYA. Specifically, 2230 mA for 3300 uF/6,3 V, which qualifies for ultra-low ESR to me. Interesting, I am just going to dig through NCC website, maybe I will find more treasure in there

ADD// are you aware of the KZA series? Series chart says

KZA - For PC motherboard (Ask Engineering Bulletin No.809 in detail) Radial 105℃ 2,000 hours +R 6.3 to 16

[mockingbird]

Re: 3300uF low-ESR caps suitable to PSUs in D10mm - may be possible!!

Too high an ESR to be considered Ultra-Low ESR class... Nice caps for PSUs though, if you don't mind using a water-based electrolytic cap. Shame they didn't make a miniaturized 16V 3300uF version (Since the KYx lines are supposed to be miniaturized)...