My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

[acstech]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

I wonder if someone could...

1. Call up CWT or similar, and order a limited production run of one particular model, specifying all Panasonic caps be used.

2. Start your internet store.

3. Slap your label on.

4. Mark up, oh, 20%, and let 'er rip!

[kc8adu]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

dont forget fans.another sore spot..

I wonder if someone could...

1. Call up CWT or similar, and order a limited production run of one particular model, specifying all Panasonic caps be used.

2. Start your internet store.

3. Slap your label on.

4. Mark up, oh, 20%, and let 'er rip!

[PCBONEZ]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

That would be a good way to go if you just wanted to make a good living.
That's not what I meant though.
I meant to gain control of the market.

To do that you'd need to set up a high capacity fab (capacity as in units/day) and stock up a huge quantity of units (a million? two?), then hit the market hard fast and at very low prices and an aggressive advertising campaign.
(Element of surprise against the other manufacturers.)
That would leave the competition holding the bag.
The bag being a back-log of stock they can't move except at a huge loss.
-
It's like a double/triple whammy.
They have to reconfigure to compete with you but that takes money.
They can't get the money because the dealers and distributors are overstocked with their (now) drastically over priced units that don't sell well.
So, the orders stop rolling in and the warehouse stays full of old stock.
-
If they don't have enough cash reserves (most companies don't really) they are stuck and are either going to go *poof* or be forced to down size the production side (Production is the first thing to cut when sales are down.) If they do down size production then they will be even slower in offering you any real competition.

You would also need a direct to public sales mechanism in place to keep distributers and dealers from gouging (excessive markups). This way you can controll the market price of your product. The dealers can't get away with marking it up to $85 if you sell it direct for $50.

~~~~

Small markup and high volume will win in the end.

I'd rather sell 20 units at a 1% markup than 1 unit at a 20% markup.
-
Let me re-phrase that.
-
I'd rather make $1 each profit on 2,000,000 units
than $20 each profit on 100,000 units.
-
Because in doing that the following year I'd be selling like 5,000,000+ units instead of only 100,000 again.

......

May sound lame but for me this is a principal thing and not about me making money. I'm on a pension already since age 40. I could do nothing and my bills are paid for life. (Although there's not a lot of money left over for 'play money' after the bills are paid.)
-
It would be about teaching the business world that integrity pays.
- Or more correctly, that a lack of integrity costs.

If I made a ton of money I'd just do it again in some other industry.
And repeat, and repeat,,,,,,

I'd LOVE to knock MicroSHAFT off their happy high horse.
(Although Vista may accomplish that for me.)

~~~~

Now that it sounds like I'm stark raving mad.
[ I am. It's called idealistic. ]

It's all a mute point because I don't have 20? million $ to start such a thing rolling.
- But damn I'd like to.

.

[acstech]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

Sounds like you've put some thought into this!

See, that's why I'd start small, because I don't have the $20 million!

Yes, the fans would also be a concern. Panaflo if I could get 'em.

[i4004]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

i think starting small means you won't be starting at all....

and i don't think caps alone are a guarantee for reliable psu. and when it comes to reliability(or lack of it) most interesting aspect are psu that blow up rest of the pc.
(i'll try to find out more about this from my friend that is actually in electronics design...thinking about it i would say it's trafo that let primary side voltages to secondary...)

but if we say just about 1 to 5% of crappy psu goes like that(with a bang that destroys everything inside the case) then you immediately see it's useless to even try to beat chinese....you cannot beat the price(most important!) and 1% to 5% of those with catastrophic failure don't really matter much.
sure those burnt won't be using cheapest chinese psus available, but you know...a lot of the people will(even without knowing it) and they won't be burnt.

also, fortron is making 50$ psus that are good.
psu market is already nicely filled and no space is left: you have cheap chinese crap(even at about 10$), you have fortron as middle, and too expensive psus that indeed are too expensive for no good reason (i once thought it's a good idea to buy these "top" psus, but not anymore).

you can only aim at fortron but as i said, i don't really think caps will make that much of a difference, esp. with people swapping their systems every few years...they don't need them to last 10 or 20 years. they just need them not blowing up the whole system. and they can usually do that with any psu.

[bgavin]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

i don't really think caps will make that much of a difference, esp. with people swapping their systems every few years...they don't need them to last 10 or 20 years. they just need them not blowing up the whole system. and they can usually do that with any psu.

That may work for the kiddie systems where the fan-boys replace parts with a vengeance. It does not work in the business environment, and especially not in government or military worlds which have a very long procurement cycle.

I have a lot of hardware still in place from the late 1990s, and a Netware server operating continuously since 1993. None of these clients can tolerate system outages, especially the kind that blow up system boards.

System board replacement invariably requires a total reinstallation, due to fundamental differences in board hardware. Rebuilding a huge Exchange server is not a trivial undertaking.

I would much rather control my exposure by using top quality components, even if I have to recap the PSU myself. Even then, I rotate the disks and PSUs every three years. I just finished a major recap of all KG7/8K7A boards installed in client servers and workstations.

I have plenty of dead machines in the bin where the system boards died because the manufacturer used "any psu". This is chronic with eMachines. The PSU craps out, and the board dies. Time for a new machine.

[starfury1]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

I guess with regard to Seasonic OEM you do get what you pay for.
(its all about the profit margin)

Humm well yeah bizz can be a hard thing, and probably for every success there's probably 100 or more failures.

but you got to bear in mind its "being in the right place at the right time with the right idea, product"

Tektronix's Apple, Victa (Aust) and quite a few big companies (including Microshaft lets face it MS with IBM did establish a standard which under CP/M there wasn't really ...although IBM did try to nail any clone manufactures to a wall and did "borrow" the open architecture idea..well as far as I am concerned...my opinion only thought)

started as more or less one man shows.
for some the idea was to build the best!

(its after they get big float themselves and hire to many self serving (and share holder) wankers that it all goes down hill for the customer...general opinion, comment "not" directed at any company)

I think you have put some thought into this and yeah making a decent supply isn't really a bad idea
Its if you can build & market it at the right price,
sure you will get a following
but on a mass scale
most computer builders use the cheapest crap they can find or build to order and quality does cost.
there is also the throw away concept and changing nature of PC's as pointed out
I suppose yes getting psu built to order is doable but the quantity/price I am guessing would be a lot.

But by all means look into it

Another idea is possibly just modding a few "quality" one's to see if people may be interested....
(read as prepared to spent a bit of money on a psu and I am talking your average Joe and Jane here not people like us who are)
on the bizz side yep "reliability & long life"(also under stress) is probably what they really need
(why, I suppose you have server grade @ $$$$...how many are, is another question)

True caps arn't the be all and end all with psu's and a good basic design is warranted to start with.
Caps my just really be the weakest link in a "quality" unit.

I guess if you got the venture capital (or can get it) to put it together its worth a go
but be prepared to lose your shirt too.

I myself would love to have the capital to risk but again like most here,
we are not millionaires...sadly

I do think too, its a bit like the razor blade that never needs sharpening...
Do you by building the best, cut your own throat?
(The man in the white suit )

Anyway just my thoughts and (no guru here) opinions on it.

Cheers

[Spectre]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

Forgive me doing this all in one but there is a bunch of junk in this thread.

damn that is a disappointment. is anything sacred anymore?

Seasonic has used OST/Teapo etc on their lowend units for some time now. In fact if the unit is an Antec Seasonic such as the NeoPwoer you can gaurentee cheaper caps since its Antec costing the unit down.

has anyone actually seen seasonic oem units with good caps. maybe they are different to the retail ones?

Yes they often use NCC/Rubycon/Matsushita on their higher end models under their label and those of partenrs who do not cost down the units.

You're right: even Corsairs [manifactured by Seasonic] employ Fuhjyyu caps.


Zandrax

No they don't.

It's all a load of marketing CRAP if you ask me.

Manufacturers of PSU's do not have to fork over big $$ for expensive parts like the latest chipsets and relative to a motherboard a PSU is damned simple to build.

PSU's are not rocket science.
Aside from minor controller changes they haven't changed much internally in years.

There is not a reason in the world a reliable PSU should cost more than $50.
Certianly it should be a LOT less than a new motherboard at any given time.

-

That would be incorrect. The BOM alone on a good PSU is going to put it significantly over $50. And if you assertion is that nothing internally has changed in years you haven't opened a PSU in years.

No kiddin'

If I had the money to, I'd do it myself. (PSU manufacturing.)
- If for no other reason that it would PLEASE ME NO END to put these ya-whos, that have wasted billions of hours other peoples time, OUT OF BUSINESS for good.

I don't want the money. I want REVENGE!

.

Monday morning quarterbacking aside...............you don't not have the money nor from your previous post a concrete understanding of what would be required.

I wonder if someone could...

1. Call up CWT or similar, and order a limited production run of one particular model, specifying all Panasonic caps be used.

2. Start your internet store.

3. Slap your label on.

4. Mark up, oh, 20%, and let 'er rip!

You could but your price is going to be very high since you are getting limited run if you can even meet the MOQ.

[gonzo0815]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

This clarifications was urgently needed, i think it seems a little awkward if we bash the single one manufacturer who actually has listen to us and does offer some psu`S with high quality capacitors.
Why not bashing PC Power & Cooling for using Teapo capacitors in a > 200$ PSU? Probably as the user get what they are expected.

I am nearly shocked how much garbage has made it into this topic, despite the fact that most of the information is already here documented in many many topics.

Personally, i can obtain a Seasonic S12 330w PSU with all good capacitors for about 50€.
If i decide to cheap out and go with the S12 OEM unit for 29€ and complain about not top notch capacitors, then i think i really have to blame myself for my own stupidity and shortsighted decision.

[zandrax]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

@ spectre:
You are right: Corsair psus manifactured by Seasonic (the HX series and the VX450) employ Hitachi or Nippon Chemicon caps; the TX series and the VX550 are manifactured by Channel Well which employs Mitsubishi or Nippon Chem. caps. Corsairs seems to be a safe purchase at the moment.

Zandrax

[acstech]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

This clarifications was urgently needed, i think it seems a little awkward if we bash the single one manufacturer who actually has listen to us and does offer some psu`S with high quality capacitors.
Why not bashing PC Power & Cooling for using Teapo capacitors in a > 200$ PSU? Probably as the user get what they are expected.

I am nearly shocked how much garbage has made it into this topic, despite the fact that most of the information is already here documented in many many topics.

Personally, i can obtain a Seasonic S12 330w PSU with all good capacitors for about 50€.
If i decide to cheap out and go with the S12 OEM unit for 29€ and complain about not top notch capacitors, then i think i really have to blame myself for my own stupidity and shortsighted decision.

Now I'll put up with a lot, but calling me stupid, directly or indirectly, will not fly.

You show me where the hell all this information is. All I can find are reviews of S12 units. I'm on here all the time reading through this stuff and I've never seen it. All I see are notes that Seasonic is the OEM for whatever company. That should in no way indicate what capacitors are in their own branded OEM units. Now maybe I missed it. If I did, it would appear Will did as well, as he seemed to be just as shocked as I was.

The unit I got is a Seasonic branded unit, not an Antec or anything else.

I still firmly believe that using quality capacitors would not add significantly to the cost of the unit, and not using them is irresponsible.

[kikkoman]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

one example:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1206

now we could argue over the question whether that is a "full OEM" unit or not, but the main point is that they've used crap caps before.
in my opinion, using a mix of good and bad caps is no better than using bad caps only. not recapping would be irresponsible in either case.

from an economical point of view (in most companies, that's what counts in the end), it's even a waste of money.
you could improve the product, but that would cost more.
OTOH, you can cut down the cost without making the product MUCH worse and replace the few good caps.
if they're 'lucky', the failure rate doesn't even increase by doing so....and everybody's happy.

[acstech]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

Yes, and I'm supposed to read through all the posts since when? You'll notice that thread was from 2005. I joined in 2007. I lurked / read for a little bit before I joined, but not 2 years!

Besides, you're right, that's not an OEM Seasonic unit and says nothing about the caps that they used in mine.

I have yet to decide if I want to recap it or send it back. I'll hook up the multimeter and see what the voltages are doing, and that may well be the deciding factor.

Oh and I posted exactly what it is when I started the thread. OEM Seasonic, SS-650JT. I bought it thinking Seasonic was a good brand. I thought OEM meant no frills, no packaging, no fancy case, but a plain functional get the job done unit. I did not expect them to compromise build quality. I thought it would be somewhat similar to the difference between a retail and OEM processor. It is a mistake I will not make again.

The offer still stands for more pics.

Paul (spectre):

The one thing I think the major review sites miss is long term reliability. Yes, you can open it up and document it's components. Yes, you can test it in a hot box. But I dont think there is any feasible way for you to really test how it will work, say, 3 years down the road without actually testing it for 3 years! Which I know isn't happening. I really think you need to mark a lot of these units down a lot more than you do for using sub-standard capacitors and other components. I dont care if it's got the best ripple results you've ever seen (although that is very important); if it's got known bad brand caps it has a big problem.

Gonzo:

"Why not bashing PC Power & Cooling for using Teapo capacitors in a > 200$ PSU?"

Because I knew PCP&C used Teapo's. Thus, I didn't buy one, have never bought one, and most likely will never buy one. I've replaced many a Teapo in Dell PSU's, so the conventional wisdom that they're fine in PSU's is out the door as far as I'm concerned. Don't think that I don't like Seasonic. I really do like their lines that use good caps. But this Seasonic does not, and it rightfully deserves to be talked about.

[gonzo0815]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

@acstech
Sorry if my post is offending to you, but that is how i see it. I fully agree that in a perfect world there should be no psu equipped with badcaps, but this sadly isn`t the way this business (and probably many others too) is working.

There are a bunch of Seasonic PSU`s in the market and i have no doubt that many if not most of them are equipped with not that particular good capacitors.

AFAIR it is mentioned in several topics here, that only the Seasonic S12 Series and other Seasonic retail PSU`s are equipped with only good capacitors (except the early lower wattage ones).
And sure, S12 is the Seasonic retail series, whereas anything other are OEM (=not intended to be sold directly to the end user) units, regardless if it has the Seasonic sticker or not.
OEM is intended for re branding or for system integrator, which probably are buying at a price point, not at the quality of the caps used.
So the question remains, why not buying the retail ones with known good capacitors? There are many reviews of the S12 series, many pics and proofs that they are equipped with good capacitors (here, at Jonnygurus site and at SPCR).
As you mentioned it, there aren't`t much if any reviews of the SS-650JT here.

Edit: a well, i was to slow in writing my reply nevertheless, it is still valid, except that i now know, why you bought it in the first place.

Personally, i would not buy any PCP&C. unit too, even if those PSU`s have that much airflow, that those Teapo probably will survive.
But i am at a point a silence freak.

[acstech]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

I am one of those system integrators. That, and the reasons I mentioned above, is why I got what I got. I dont need the extra packaging, wire looms, and other junk you get on a retail unit. But I thought the build quality would not be compromised.

[Spectre]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

Paul (spectre):

The one thing I think the major review sites miss is long term reliability. Yes, you can open it up and document it's components. Yes, you can test it in a hot box. But I dont think there is any feasible way for you to really test how it will work, say, 3 years down the road without actually testing it for 3 years! Which I know isn't happening. I really think you need to mark a lot of these units down a lot more than you do for using sub-standard capacitors and other components. I dont care if it's got the best ripple results you've ever seen (although that is very important); if it's got known bad brand caps it has a big problem.

No there isn't but I also can't bag a unit that passes because it might die in 3 years because of the capacitors used when everything else about the unit is fine. That simply is not honest, or fair as an assessment because we can't prove that it will die or even that it is at a greater risk of dieing since there are certainly a large number of units with certain questionable caps that last a very long time while there are units were good caps don't last a long time.

Seriously, if you think back in power supplies how many dead units have you seen that died because of a cap failure? Of those how many brands of caps are represented there?

Off the top of my head the ones I have seen recently are:

Fuhjyyu
JEE
Goldlink
Nippon Chemi-con
Asia'X
Jen Po
CEC Holdings
Su'scon
Teapo (only 1)
Hitachi
HC

Some of those are junk...some of those are not. Of those the majority are Fuhjyyu's, Asia'x, JEE, and Nippon Chemi-con. Am I going to recommend someone run out and buy a power supply full of Teapo's because it is full or Teapo's or CEC no...but I am not going to recommend someone go out and buy a unit simply because it is full of Nippon Chemi-con's either.....and neither of those is due in whole to the capacitor selection as the unit is more than just the caps used.

[acstech]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

I do this stuff for a living, and I can think of plenty. Most of which got recapped. Heck, I've got a stack of recapped units in the back room that all had leaking caps. Most of the other units get recapped and then go back out with the customer machine.

We do have different methodologies. I can see that. We also have different perspectives on things. I just think you need to put a little more weight into cap selection. That's all. Otherwise you're doing a great job over there, and I do enjoy reading your articles.

Edit: No, you cant bag it because it "might" die in 3 years, but capacitor brand does give a good indication. What other indications do you have?

[gonzo0815]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

Ok, i got your point ;-). Today it is not easy , to build systems in a small scale avoiding all the traps and quirks and being still competitive at some point.
May be it is best, to return the unit, as there is a track record from KC8 of several of the older Seasoning units (Super Tornado and probably some early S12 or OEM units) which failed due to bad capacitors.

Sure, the efficiency is now better and therefore ambient temperature is probably lower, but for the SS-650JT the data sheet does only state an 75% efficiency.
Duno how long the warranty period is, but the retail units have 3 year warranty.

In the past i was used to by SS400FS units in bulk and recapped them. I got them that cheap, that covering the warranty would not hurt me.
At an $100 psu, i am not that sure, if i would take it that easily.

[Spectre]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

I do this stuff for a living, and I can think of plenty. Most of which got recapped. Heck, I've got a stack of recapped units in the back room that all had leaking caps. Most of the other units get recapped and then go back out with the customer machine.

And that stack of units is made up of how many units out of how many sold? What percentage of those units are represented by what Brand/model? In that breakdown what is the percentage of each capacitor brand?

I think what you will notice if you quickly run through those is that you have a small percentage of units out the total sold that are made up almost exclusively of a few models of power supplies which consequently have only a few brands of caps that have failed and that those failed units have other design issues as well.

On an aside there is no way I would ever send a recapped unit out to a client or customer of mine because that unit has already been compromised and the recap job is not necessarily going to fix the underlying problem. I have tested some recapped units before and while the recapping job was excellent the units still failed because the underlying design issues are still present.

We do have different methodologies. I can see that. We also have different perspectives on things. I just think you need to put a little more weight into cap selection. That's all. Otherwise you're doing a great job over there, and I do enjoy reading your articles.

Now that being said I don't need to wait 3 years for a Fuhjyyu to pop in a Truepower or TPII or SmartPower or SmartPowerII because each and everyone of those models has failed on the load tester far before the capacitors would have died in service. By testing them on the load tester in the way I do I know they are overspeced and undercooled units before ever opening them to see the Fuhjyyu's.

[gonzo0815]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

I haven`t seen too much defective PSU`s with good caps, and i agree that reviews can not be the definitive answer.
But at least such elaborated tests like Jonny is doing give some basic hints where the build quality is.

Personally, i do not build systems with bad capacitors any more, as it will come back an bite you.
Apart from the capacitors, i only use and recommend one of the known good psu brands.
This list is limited, and probably you have to scratch more often an manufacturer from this list then adding one.