My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

[acstech]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

Your questions assume that I have sold a equal across the board spectrum of the PSU's available. Of course they are going to be made up of a few types, simply because I don't change brands that often. A lot of those are older Antec's, with fuhjyyu's, like you're talking about. It's the ones that aren't in my stack, that come in from computers that I didn't build, that are more interesting. Of those, I see mostly Teapo and Fuhjyyu (probably 50/50 between the two), with a few others mixed in for good measure.

I see recapping more as fixing their equipment. I would never take one off the stack and give it to a customer. But I would fix the one that was in their computer. I've never had a come-back on a recapped unit. Ever. And yes, I do keep in touch with my customers. I never sell things that I recap, or any used part. I will, however, repair a computer that they ask me to repair. If that means recapping the PSU, then so be it. They appreciate the fact that I've saved them a lot of money.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

Spectre, you are adding junk not removing it.
(And you should be advised that several days worth of this thread were lost yesterday due to a server glitch, you are commenting on old news that has already been addressed in detail.)

Seasonic using OST means Seasonic is using crap and -> nothing is sacred.
JUST as willawake said.
- If you knew a thing about caps in PSU's that would be self evident.
OST->Crap. .. The ONLY thing worse than OST in a PSU is Fuhjyyu...
... and that's not saying much for OST (or Seasonic).


I am not incorrect. It is marketing bullshit.
If there is a single part in a PSU that costs over $50 then how is it there are so many PSUs that sell for $15-$20?
- There are HUNDREDS!
- You obviously do not understand a thing about mass production and you don't get that manufacturers buy in bulk and they don't pay what you do for parts?
-
I have worked in manufacturing. The particular products retailed for $50-$80 depending on model. I was allowed to buy at company cost. That was $14-$17.


PSU's have not changed other than control chips and routines.
They've used PWM control of xfmers for 20+ years now.
(My meaning was discussed in detail in the missing/lost posts.)
- That is OLD technology. OLD OLD OLD.


Sorry but it would not be at all difficult to build a PSU from scratch.
My background in electronics is specifically control systems for Nuclear Power plants but been out of that for something like 15 years, I'm a lot rusty, and until recently I never gave a damn about what was in a PSU or any other part of a computer. I've just started looking at them in detail. What I found with PSU's is they are incredibly EASY and simple and it would not be a problem to duplicate and improve one.
-
In fact, there are a great number of people on this site that could easily handle such a project if they had time and were of a mind to.


~~~~~

Now that it's established you are a loud mouth and an idiot,

Welcome to badcaps.net.

.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

Spectre

You are a "black box technician"
-
That would be a tech that replaces and entire unit when one part goes bad because the tech does not understand how it works and so is afraid to or incapable of fixing it.
-
Anyone with common sense would prefer a part that has been thoroughly inspected by a knowledgeable tech to one fresh off an assembly line where QA inspections and checks are hurried, quick, oversimplified, and where detailed inpections are only 1 in X many units.
-

[PCBONEZ]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

Spectre

>>> ....... small percentage of units out the total sold ....... <<<

You do not have data that supports your counter claim either.
- You argument carries no weight.
- It is meaningless.
There is no way to account for the number of the entire production that end up in dumpsters by hands of black-box techs or end users that do not report anything to anyone and who don't bother to do any kind of failure analysis.

The people here actually know how things work.
The people here actually do failure analysis down to the component level.
Unlike your site, what the people here say is not hype.

We look at equipment that has come out of the field, not brand new stuff fresh out of a retail box.

An 8 hour 'torcher test' - WOW, that's realistic... RIGHT.
Know what. Even crappy caps live 8 hours (usually.)

Ever think to look at the MOSFETs and transformer ratings in your reviews?
That's the real way to determine the PSUs limits.

I suppose you think two fans is better too. - Bullshit.
It's CFM that matters and you simply don't need that much.
A mere 30 CFM fan will change the air in an ATX PSU 471 times a minute.
-
If you changed the air in an average ATX case that fast it would come to around 600 CFM. - Do you really think that much is needed?
-

.

[starfury1]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

Generally speaking ;

well I stand by my "posted General thoughts" on "can we build a better mouse trap and market it at a reasonable price."
if they are junk or not is for the reader to decide
people are entitle to their own opinion.
At some point and on some points people will just have to agree to disagree.

On the original thread;

Thread originally was based on the fact that a seasonic OEM was not built to the same standards of a retail seasonic cap wise
(dont think anything else was mentioned)


His comment was on the fact that he would have expected it to be of the same build quality (components used) and that he didn't need a pretty box as he would be getting them not 1 (reduce costs was the aim I suppose)

This would have also center on the fact of the "life time" of the psu with the use of lesser quality caps.

Generally speaking;

Threads here do tend to drift little off the original topic to something in some way related and no one gets hauled over hot coals for it.
(which is really the way conversations flow anyway)
I can see the point of stay on track type forums or you will be put up against a wall...I still prefer the more free flow of this forum

The thread drift;

The subject of building or getting made to your specs a PSU which its sort of now drifted to is a very big Area and does cover a lot of ground and has a lot of aspects to it.
Points of view from people based on their experience will vary quite considerably .
Most who post here "Do repair" a psu rather then bin it
(Deers excepted )
if its as a repair or a preemptive move to keep customers happy.
its done by most on this forum

I guess we all agree that a decent design PSU with the use of good quality caps will in all likely hood out live a quality design with lower grade caps,
(probably in a good design the lower grade caps will have a longer life)

So on the original topic you could recap them or possibly just run with them as is making a note that a recap will be required probably sooner.

I guess it does again depend on if you are building for home type customer or bizz type were you got the contract to look after the boxes and do regular support.

general comments on posts

Just on the Corsair HX620W
it does use decent caps as in the Seasoinc on which its based according to JG review
it is older model now and current ones if it still being produced I don't know about.
It was cheaper but not that cheap

Mine from what I could see were all quality but I didn't open it...
so not conclusive I suppose

Corsair do have newer models (VX) and are made by a different psu builder.
from what I read these are still a quality build, if possibly not using the higher quality caps (if memory serves me)

On "Black box Technician" (Valve Jockey)

I suppose its really the way most things are done these days and to some extent as a hard bizz thing it does make some economic sense.

Me I rather go to a person that knows there stuff and is prepared to analyze the problem till they are happy with the resolve they find.
but in some situations this doesn't make a whole lot of economic sense.
(we all got to eat)

True thought, black box trouble shooting doesn't required a whole lot of knowledge were as going to component level you at the very lest need to have a good grounding in Electronics basics to be able to analyze whats happening.

Although the "change this component and that component" can work if someone has done the hard yards already on a model.

On psu failure

True caps aren't the be all and end all of PSU failure
but I think they do account for a lot of them and possibly the original fault could be traced back to them

Not the guru on this...
just my thoughts from what I have gathered here and in my little experience

Closing comment

I have been asked the question
"why should I pay $130 for a power supply rather then $30? "

To me the answer is quite simple, but to their wallets it isn't

One is liable to die fairly quickly and take you whole system to "silicon Heaven" the other should last for a few years and when it does die you system wont go with it.

(humm now where's that post about sticking the tops of blown caps down with sticky tape for repair again )

Junk or not you decide. just my thoughts and comments

Cheers All

[PCBONEZ]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

As pointed out in anther thread.
.. Looking at wholesale prices.
.. The difference in using crap caps and high quality caps in a PSU:

--->> IS LESS THAN ONE US DOLLAR.

There is NO EXCUSE for not using good caps in any PSU. - NONE!!!

- END OF STORY!

..........

Sorry for my earlier rant guys.

I just can't stand hot shot Black Box Techs mouthing off and talking smack to people that actually know what they are doing.
-
That's like a Wet Nurse telling a Brain Surgeon he doesn't know anything about Medicine.

There is nothing wrong with being a Wet Nurse or a Black Box Tech.....
.... until they start claiming to be an authority over more qualified people...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"why should I pay $130 for a power supply rather then $30?"

~~~~~ other should last for a few years and when it does die you system wont go with it.

That's the root of the problem Starfury1.

Lately, they DON'T last a few years and they DO take your system with them.

90+% of the time it's because of bad capacitors.

And the difference between good caps and bad caps is ONE DOLLAR.
(With $100 mark-up I think they could squeeze $1 for good caps in there.)

.

[acstech]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

Just to drive the pricing point home, go look in the Digikey catalog. Look at pricing on Panasonic FM caps, per 1000 units. Now if they cost that, in America, what do you suppose these PSU manufacturers could get them for? Remember they (the PSU manufacturers) are closer to the cap manufactuer, most likely buying direct, and buying a lot more of 'em.

Like I said before, it's completely irresponsible for the manufacturers to use bad capacitors, in anything! I'd gladly pay the extra $1.

[kikkoman]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

Small markup and high volume will win in the end.

I'd rather sell 20 units at a 1% markup than 1 unit at a 20% markup.
-
Let me re-phrase that.
-
I'd rather make $1 each profit on 2,000,000 units
than $20 each profit on 100,000 units.
-
Because in doing that the following year I'd be selling like 5,000,000+ units instead of only 100,000 again.

It all comes down to money and simple maths.
Save that one dollar a few million times (i estimate a major PSU manufacturer like Seasonic produces a few million units a year) - and there's your reason for saving ONE BUCK per unit.

yes sir, that IS sad.

-----

and there are two things you can do about it:
a) do it better (but I guess none of us has the ambition - let alone money - to enter the PSU manufacturing business)
b) help yourself. you're lucky that you're capable of that unlike millions of other people that get ripped off (and they don't even know it).

that leaves us with option b).

[PCBONEZ]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

Yes kikkoman but if in saving that $1/ unit you create a faulty failure prone product then next year you only sell 1/2 as many, and the next 1/2 as many as the year before. ....
[Currently the industries responce to that problem is to drop the models and create new ones so people THINK they are different, yet they have not.]


What I said (not verbatim) that started all this and all the side shoots was this:

All it would take is ONE manufacturer to start selling a GOOD product at a REASONABLE price and the entire PSU market would be flipped on it's ear.
[ And that the market is RIPE for someone to do this. ]
-
As it is the options are buy crap or spend $80-up. (And it may still be crap!)

Comparing the cost of parts between a $20 PSU and a $80 PSU there is no way the difference in parts is $60. - $20/$30 maybe but not $60.

The low/mid range units are a rip-off because they are mostly crap.
The high end units are a rip-off because they are gouging.

~~~

I am exploring option B.
I don't want to futz with the sheet metal work and PCB layout so I've been looking for a cheap unit with full PCB layout for a better model to rebuild into a good one.
(U know, one with the full layout on the PCB but only 1/2 the parts are present.)
Almost from scratch, not quite.

In the mean time I'm re-building Antecs into something that's not crap because I have them and I need a few PSU's right now.

.

[kikkoman]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

Yes kikkoman but if in saving that $1/ unit you create a faulty failure prone product then next year you only sell 1/2 as many, and the next 1/2 as many as the year before. ....
[Currently the industries responce to that problem is to drop the models and create new ones so people THINK they are different, yet they have not.]

i'd say they only have to wait for their competitors to make it worse (same thing as with hard drives).
as long as PSUs fail, people will buy new ones.

oh, and here's the latest fancy shmancy gimmick shit: http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/08/...ftware_control

All it would take is ONE manufacturer to start selling a GOOD product at a REASONABLE price and the entire PSU market would be flipped on it's ear.
[ And that the market is RIPE for someone to do this. ]

sorry, but the market won't give a shit as long as the major review sites don't give a shit about crap caps. sure, clean voltages and stress tests are important, too, but that's just as far as they can think.

i've read a few reviews on the S12-II where the reviewers freaked out over the fact that there's a polymer cap inside. of course they didn't give a shit about the other caps.
They might have spent the money for that one poly on decent caps as well... but it seems to work out for them. those moronic reviewers like it, people buy it. in case those units fail, they introduce something new (see above).

[PCBONEZ]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

What gets me is most of the review sites don't even open them up and look at what's inside.
- The ones that do don't have a clue what to look for.

xxxx is big, it MUST be good. (Yo dink noid, what's the current rating?)
WOW an 80mm fan! (Yo dink noid, what's the CFM?)
The sleeving doesn't go to the end of the cable.
-- (No shit Sherlock. That's so you can rotate it to plug it in. It's called 'a feature'.)
I actually saw one that said the shiny nickel plating was to improve cooling.
-- Since when does a smooth surface improve heat transfer?

Voltage checks and stress tests on brand new gear is rediculous.
It's interesting and all, but it's almost useless information.
Burn them in for say 3000 hours minimum and THEN do the tests.
[And don't do them at random room temperatures, do it at 85c.]

Case in point:
The crap caps from the P50/P51 problem passed their endurance tests just fine.
- Those tests didn't mean much in the real world did they...


Fancy shmancy gimmick shit is right.
I'm sure those _____ that pay $15 more to get an LED in a fan will fall all over it.


>>> as long as PSUs fail, people will buy new ones. <<<
True.
And as soon as one that's a better value comes along they will buy THAT new one.
Pretty much what I've been saying.
There aren't ANY that are a good value for the price right now.
Yes there are those that when compared to others are a better or worse value.
But there are NONE that are a good value.
Whoever comes up with one wins.


Review sites aren't the only thing that pops up in an internet search anymore.
Searches don't just include home pages.
Even the content of posts -inside- forums shows up now.
The days of being able to sell a bad product and not have the whole world know are gone.
[ This is a good thing. ]

.

[kikkoman]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

another (basically good) thing that turned out bad is the review function at various online stores (like newegg or alternate.de here in germany).

problem:
people are stupid and post ANYthing on the internet, and you can't do anything about it (see youtube for example).
eg they buy a 1.2kVA PSU, don't even load it 50% and if it still works after the weekend, they give it a 5 star rating and post some stuff about the water cooling system they ordered with it (or they bash it because it's louder than the water cooling system). at least that's what they usually write here.
people see the ratings - and hey, if everybody says it's good, it must be good - they buy it.
even if they actually (accidentally) READ the reviews, no one points out the important stuff.
this way, they don't even have to look at a review site. this is even worse.

getting a bit OT here...

[gonzo0815]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.


Have seen this happen with the LC-Power PSU`s too. The LC550 got good ratings in forums and at ebay.
Well, in reality, it can probably handle about 200w (in most stress test, it died at this lvl) to 300w and capacitors will not last much longer then one or two years ( i have recapped two of those units, especially the 5vSB capacitors are horribly bad).

Apart from this, thy where solid, which means they deliver for the most usual systems and this is the point, people realize.
And they are very happy, if the psu will leave their system unharmed, when the inevitable happens and buy it again.

And simply, this is the problem in this industry, without informed customers and even not that knowledgeable black box technicians (most guy in the stores recommend a ultra cheap 520w psu these days, for systems drawing a lot less then 200w...) i am not that sure, if a honest producer will earn what he deservs

[PCBONEZ]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

An honest producer with a reasonable profit margin and a good product would become known quickly and be able to sell as fast as the product can be built.

The informed customers would be the first in line but from them the word would spread.

In all likelihood after a time the producer would develop the greed problem that is the problem with all the producers now. - But that doesn't always happen. Just usually.

I know a man that fixes motorcycles.
He charges thus:
He asks you what you make per hour.
Then he charges you the same for his time.

Not everyone is greedy.
.

[starfury1]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

An honest producer with a reasonable profit margin and a good product would become known quickly and be able to sell as fast as the product can be built.

Thats the Hope PCBONEZ, as you say sadly no one is stepping up to the plate.

Originally Posted by starfury1
"why should I pay $130 for a power supply rather then $30?"

~~~~~ other should last for a few years and when it does die you system wont go with it.



That's the root of the problem Starfury1.

Lately, they DON'T last a few years and they DO take your system with them.

90+% of the time it's because of bad capacitors.

I was referring to a $130 that does do the job (and not kill the box) and how do you convince a lay person that that is really the better way to go

I got a little confused on your reply then realized you were just taking it to the next level

on you later post

As it is the options are buy crap or spend $80-up. (And it may still be crap!)

Agree, Sadly this may well be the case and as you (more or less) say they are just milking the "cash cow" on those that may actually want a decent reliable PSU and are prepared to spend the money.

I dont mind spending the money on a decent one and don't mind giving a good recommendation...lets face it the best advertisement is word of mouth
(even advertising companies are now exploiting this unfortunately)

I guess no matter which way you slice and dice this subject it does end up coming back to $$$ but I find people opinions on this interesting

Yeah on the gimmick, givem Knobs to twiddle

I didn't read it all but guess its for those that like to adjust things for video cards cpu's (whatever) so guess its more directed at OCers

even though it's understood that 100% efficiency remains unattainable, especially given today's technologies.

isn't this like a fundamental law of the physics and the universe
your just not going to get there??????
(if you could then technically there would be no energy lost as heat in a psu... cool, all pun intended)

Anyway good luck in your quest to find base psu you to build on PCBonez

Just a question on what kicked this thread off,
is the Seasonic OEM the same except for the caps used or are there other area its been lower quality or lower speced parts used?
(if it was posted I might have missed it)
Thanks

Cheers All

[PCBONEZ]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

As to ... >>> What kiched off this thread <<<

A Seasonic build (OEM) with OST, JPCE-TUR, and Teapo caps.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

You KNOW they are going to say Seasonic built it and use that as justification to mark it up another $20.

.

[Spectre]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

Spectre, you are adding junk not removing it.
(And you should be advised that several days worth of this thread were lost yesterday due to a server glitch, you are commenting on old news that has already been addressed in detail.)

Seasonic using OST means Seasonic is using crap and -> nothing is sacred.
JUST as willawake said.
- If you knew a thing about caps in PSU's that would be self evident.
OST->Crap. .. The ONLY thing worse than OST in a PSU is Fuhjyyu...
... and that's not saying much for OST (or Seasonic).

Let's see here what I actually said on teh subject not what you seem to have imagined on the subject:

Seasonic has used OST/Teapo etc on their lowend units for some time now. In fact if the unit is an Antec Seasonic such as the NeoPwoer you can gaurentee cheaper caps since its Antec costing the unit down.

Yes they often use NCC/Rubycon/Matsushita on their higher end models under their label and those of partenrs who do not cost down the units.

No there isn't but I also can't bag a unit that passes because it might die in 3 years because of the capacitors used when everything else about the unit is fine. That simply is not honest, or fair as an assessment because we can't prove that it will die or even that it is at a greater risk of dieing since there are certainly a large number of units with certain questionable caps that last a very long time while there are units were good caps don't last a long time.

Seriously, if you think back in power supplies how many dead units have you seen that died because of a cap failure? Of those how many brands of caps are represented there?

Off the top of my head the ones I have seen recently are:

Fuhjyyu
JEE
Goldlink
Nippon Chemi-con
Asia'X
Jen Po
CEC Holdings
Su'scon
Teapo (only 1)
Hitachi
HC

Some of those are junk...some of those are not. Of those the majority are Fuhjyyu's, Asia'x, JEE, and Nippon Chemi-con. Am I going to recommend someone run out and buy a power supply full of Teapo's because it is full or Teapo's or CEC no...but I am not going to recommend someone go out and buy a unit simply because it is full of Nippon Chemi-con's either.....and neither of those is due in whole to the capacitor selection as the unit is more than just the caps used.

Now that being said I don't need to wait 3 years for a Fuhjyyu to pop in a Truepower or TPII or SmartPower or SmartPowerII because each and everyone of those models has failed on the load tester far before the capacitors would have died in service. By testing them on the load tester in the way I do I know they are overspeced and undercooled units before ever opening them to see the Fuhjyyu's.

The bolded part there is the important part.

I am not incorrect. It is marketing bullshit.
If there is a single part in a PSU that costs over $50 then how is it there are so many PSUs that sell for $15-$20?
- There are HUNDREDS!
- You obviously do not understand a thing about mass production and you don't get that manufacturers buy in bulk and they don't pay what you do for parts?
-
I have worked in manufacturing. The particular products retailed for $50-$80 depending on model. I was allowed to buy at company cost. That was $14-$17.

That's great but you are still wrong. I never said a single item costs over $50 that is your strawman. I said the BOM on a good power supply is going to be close to that and that doesn't include the rest of the requirements to get a unit to its wholesale price. Maybe that's just because I don't deal in crap power supplies.

PSU's have not changed other than control chips and routines.
They've used PWM control of xfmers for 20+ years now.
(My meaning was discussed in detail in the missing/lost posts.)
- That is OLD technology. OLD OLD OLD.

Well then start recreating it because right now you are dead wrong.

Sorry but it would not be at all difficult to build a PSU from scratch.
My background in electronics is specifically control systems for Nuclear Power plants but been out of that for something like 15 years, I'm a lot rusty, and until recently I never gave a damn about what was in a PSU or any other part of a computer. I've just started looking at them in detail. What I found with PSU's is they are incredibly EASY and simple and it would not be a problem to duplicate and improve one.

-
In fact, there are a great number of people on this site that could easily handle such a project if they had time and were of a mind to.


~~~~~

Then do it and from scratch and prove me wrong. I will even volunteer to load test it for you when you are done to see if it passes specs. If you need I'll even spot you some of the components.

Now that it's established you are a loud mouth and an idiot,

Welcome to badcaps.net.

.

If everyone here is as "interesting" as you it certainly will be entertaining. BTW check the reg date

[acstech]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

"sorry, but the market won't give a shit as long as the major review sites don't give a shit about crap caps. sure, clean voltages and stress tests are important, too, but that's just as far as they can think.

i've read a few reviews on the S12-II where the reviewers freaked out over the fact that there's a polymer cap inside. of course they didn't give a shit about the other caps.
They might have spent the money for that one poly on decent caps as well... but it seems to work out for them. those moronic reviewers like it, people buy it. in case those units fail, they introduce something new (see above)."

Exactly! Spectre's comments above should prove this. Although, I do think people would give a shit about a quality PSU at a reasonable price. If not immediately, then after the "computer guy down the road" tells 'em that it's a good one. And what about the system integrators like myself? We would be all over that like flies on on a manure pile.

As for comparison of the OEM unit to the S12, or S12-II, I dont have an S12 here to compare. Like I said, offer still stands for more pics. Somebody just say the word.

Here's a link to the product on Newegg:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817151036

And for the $120 I paid for this damned thing, I expected better than what was in it.

As to the increased cost of caps eating into profits:
So they raise the price another $1. So instead of costing $120, it costs $121. I can tell you, that to 99.9999% of the people buying this stuff, that $1 difference is nothing.

[Spectre]

Re: My new Seasonic has questionable caps.

Spectre

You are a "black box technician"
-
That would be a tech that replaces and entire unit when one part goes bad because the tech does not understand how it works and so is afraid to or incapable of fixing it.
-
Anyone with common sense would prefer a part that has been thoroughly inspected by a knowledgeable tech to one fresh off an assembly line where QA inspections and checks are hurried, quick, oversimplified, and where detailed inpections are only 1 in X many units.
-

Actually I already covered already and it I replace failed units because of exactly what I said. Recapped power supplies that I have load tested have failed (ie gone out of specification) in less than 12 hours. Therefore, recapping a unit that will fail again because the unit is fundamentally flawed is not the appropriate solution to the problem. The correct solution is to use a proper part.

Spectre

>>> ....... small percentage of units out the total sold ....... <<<

You do not have data that supports your counter claim either.
- You argument carries no weight.
- It is meaningless.
There is no way to account for the number of the entire production that end up in dumpsters by hands of black-box techs or end users that do not report anything to anyone and who don't bother to do any kind of failure analysis.

The people here actually know how things work.
The people here actually do failure analysis down to the component level.
Unlike your site, what the people here say is not hype.

Right. Ok if everyone here does failure analysis down to the component level, what are the most common modes of failure? Honestly now.

We look at equipment that has come out of the field, not brand new stuff fresh out of a retail box.

An 8 hour 'torcher test' - WOW, that's realistic... RIGHT.
Know what. Even crappy caps live 8 hours (usually.)

That is actually sort of correct. Crappy caps can sometimes survive, but not all the time. On the flipside something you never look at because you can't is that crappy designs don't last.

Ever think to look at the MOSFETs and transformer ratings in your reviews?
That's the real way to determine the PSUs limits.

Yes, and noone gives a flying dead rats ass. So I don't write about it.

I suppose you think two fans is better too. - Bullshit.
It's CFM that matters and you simply don't need that much.
A mere 30 CFM fan will change the air in an ATX PSU 471 times a minute.
-
If you changed the air in an average ATX case that fast it would come to around 600 CFM. - Do you really think that much is needed?

Yeah I guess you don't actually know anything about me or really that much about airflow in a power supply. It would be helpful for you if you knew about what you were accusing people of.
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"sorry, but the market won't give a shit as long as the major review sites don't give a shit about crap caps. sure, clean voltages and stress tests are important, too, but that's just as far as they can think.

i've read a few reviews on the S12-II where the reviewers freaked out over the fact that there's a polymer cap inside. of course they didn't give a shit about the other caps.
They might have spent the money for that one poly on decent caps as well... but it seems to work out for them. those moronic reviewers like it, people buy it. in case those units fail, they introduce something new (see above)."

Exactly! Spectre's comments above should prove this. Although, I do think people would give a shit about a quality PSU at a reasonable price. If not immediately, then after the "computer guy down the road" tells 'em that it's a good one. And what about the system integrators like myself? We would be all over that like flies on on a manure pile.

Actually thanks but no. The caps are always commented on and when a unit fails before the caps would fail it doesn't matter if the caps would have failed the unit is already not something to use so its a non-starter. If a unit survives and has bad caps it is an issue. With the exception of Teapo and Ltec I have not had many units with bad caps survive...but I can't really ding Pc Power and Cooling for Teapo's because the units DO last in the field.