Want to Learn About Solar Panels

[Used_Cars]

My neighbor across the street dumped thousands of dollars into solar panels on his roof. I also know an HVAC guy in California that is getting out of HVAC and into Solar Panel installation because there's supposed to be a lot more money. And I recently learned that I should have a 3rd attic turbine thing on my roof, because two is not enough for the square footage. (Paid a guy through Home Depot to do an "energy audit" or whatever it's called. They wanted to sell me insulation.)

So that's the sum total of my connection to solar power.

I have some background in electronics, but by no means comprehensive. I understand the panels generate electricity, and that there are batteries to store it, but I don't understand the whole system, most particularly how excess electricity gets sold back the electric company.

I'm a visual learner, and am hoping to find someone that can link some good videos showing how these things work, most particularly how the electricity gets stored, and how it gets converted from DC to AC.

I suspect that there's a HUGE margin in Solar Panels, and I wonder if it's possible for a DIY'er to build his own "homemade" system, rather than paying a professional company to come out and do it. I watched them install the system across the street and it did not look particularly difficult. I also wonder if you can build your own system one piece at a time, instead of dumping the money into it all at once.

Also other things like ROI, and how long it takes, and where the technological edge is, where the industry is going, etc... Are there any "Solar Energy Enthusiasts" clubs? Hobbyists, etc...?

[stj]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

solar power is pointless without a small anti-aircraft system like a strelets platform.

the geo-engineering scum will cloud you over every day.

[Uniballer]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

ROI is complicated because the regulatory landscape and subsidies are probably going to change.

In my state at this time, the power company is supposed to buy power back from you at the same rate they sell it to you. This is probably unsustainable in the long run, depending on exactly how this calculation is done (e.g. service charges vs energy charges). Check out Salt River Project rate changes and related news articles for a view of where this all may lead. Some homeowners in Arizona who are subject to these rate changes are now saying they don't think their solar systems will ever pay for themselves. They were planning to get about .10 per kWh they sold back to the POCO, but new installations are now only getting about .04 per kWh.

US government bodies have been handing out tax subsidies to solar system owners. This has made it much easier for people to get a return on their solar system investments. If the tax subsidies are reduced or eliminated then it may be impossible to recover the installation costs of these systems at the present electricity rates.

[Used_Cars]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

But no one here, in International Geek Central, thinks solar power is intrinsically "cool"? No Solar Power support groups, no resident Swami Solar Guru?

[goontron]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

But no one here, in International Geek Central, thinks solar power is intrinsically "cool"? No Solar Power support groups, no resident Swami Solar Guru?

I'm certified in Solar through SEI.... Right now, It really not very useable. The "grid" is built for centralised energy. We have no way to synchronize inverter loads, Phasing is tricky, and safety is a problem (240v stepped up to 50,000v is very dangerous for linemen) For our grid, non-central solar is bunkus. No one wants to pay for our ailing grid either. We have managed to stopgap the safety issue by making the grid tied inverters cut out when mains is lost. But again, stopgap.

[stj]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

wind, solar are reliant on an inconsistant source, water is better if your near a fast flowing source.

[retiredcaps]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

I'm a visual learner, and am hoping to find someone that can link some good videos showing how these things work, most particularly how the electricity gets stored, and how it gets converted from DC to AC.

Martin's and Dave's youtube channel have some videos re solar panels. Use the search function to find them.

https://www.youtube.com/user/mjlorton/videos

https://www.youtube.com/user/EEVblog/videos

[goontron]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

wind, solar are reliant on an inconsistant source, water is better if your near a fast flowing source.

There's that too. Part of the load balancing problem. The good thing about solar is it follows closely to the bell curve of the grids load.

[Used_Cars]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

I'm certified in Solar through SEI.... Right now, It really not very useable. The "grid" is built for centralised energy. We have no way to synchronize inverter loads, Phasing is tricky, and safety is a problem (240v stepped up to 50,000v is very dangerous for linemen) For our grid, non-central solar is bunkus. No one wants to pay for our ailing grid either. We have managed to stopgap the safety issue by making the grid tied inverters cut out when mains is lost. But again, stopgap.

Okay but back to my neighbor across the street. He's got half his roof covered with solar panels. Hot south texas sun. He says in the hottest months he'll generate more electricity than he'll use. But then he says no batteries.

I question his technical understanding of things.

And other questions I have, such as the idea that the more ventilation you have in your attic, the lower your energy usage. So why not run solar powered fans on your roof vents? The roof vents I've seen have small little panels and from my research the fan motors are also small, so then why not a large panel to run a larger motor and more CFM to lower attic temp to save money on AC usage?

Is there a standard solar panel size? Is there a standard solar panel output? Does voltage change or remain constant as the sun's intensity changes? What about batteries? What's the best battery to use to back-up a solar system?

[goontron]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

Okay but back to my neighbor across the street. He's got half his roof covered with solar panels. Hot south texas sun. He says in the hottest months he'll generate more electricity than he'll use. But then he says no batteries.

I question is technical understanding of things.

And other questions I have, such as the idea that the more ventilation you have in your attic, the lower your energy usage. So why not run solar powered fans on your roof vents? The roof vents I've seen have small little panels and from my research the fan motors are also small, so then why not a large panel to run a larger motor and more CFM to lower attic temp to save money on AC usage?

Is there a standard solar panel size? Is there a standard solar panel output? Does voltage change or remain constant as the sun's intensity changes? What about batteries? What's the best battery to use to back-up a solar system?

It's most common to have grid-tied with no batteries. He might make more than he uses. It depends on lots of factors, but it's mostly marketing wank, IMO.

For the solar fans, i can't really explain CFM and all that, sorry.

Panel size.... Well, it varies. usually they are around 65 inches by 39 inches and commercial applications is usually about 77 inches by 39 inches.

Output varies by many factors. Efficacy, cell type, cell count (60 to 96), conditions like how clean they are, indirect or direct sunlight, etc.

The batteries are variables to. Most common is Lead-acid. Cheapest of them all. There is also NiMH system, and (mostly experimental) Lithium ion systems. I prefer Lead Acid because they are easy to maintain and charge. (and you don't have piles of chemical ready to convert back to lithium when they get too hot and burn)

[Used_Cars]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

Monocrystalline vs. Polycrystalline Solar Panels - What's the Difference?

https://youtu.be/TCq0K3DlFdc

[budm]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

Solar attic fan:
http://www.sunlightconcepts.com/solar_star
http://www.ussunlight.com/tax-incentives
http://www.solar-attic-fan-info.com/...c-fan-faqs.php

[Used_Cars]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

It's most common to have grid-tied with no batteries. He might make more than he uses. It depends on lots of factors, but it's mostly marketing wank, IMO.

For the solar fans, i can't really explain CFM and all that, sorry.

Panel size.... Well, it varies. usually they are around 65 inches by 39 inches and commercial applications is usually about 77 inches by 39 inches.

Output varies by many factors. Efficacy, cell type, cell count (60 to 96), conditions like how clean they are, indirect or direct sunlight, etc.

The batteries are variables to. Most common is Lead-acid. Cheapest of them all. There is also NiMH system, and (mostly experimental) Lithium ion systems. I prefer Lead Acid because they are easy to maintain and charge. (and you don't have piles of chemical ready to convert back to lithium when they get too hot and burn)

Thanks for all of that.

Does the material in the solar cell degrade? How long do they last? Do they have to be cleaned? How often? Is there a niche service industry doing periodic cleaning of solar panels? Like cleaning swimming pools?

I don't understand why these aren't more common, especially here in Texas. It's free electricity, from the sun, once you've paid off the cost of the devices and their installation.

Also what about tracking? I've read some mentions that some panels move to follow the sun. Does the power cost in doing this impact total energy created? I have this idea of a sun-powered computer controlling each panel, moving each individual panel independently so that the power it creates is maximized. Little servo motors constantly moving the panel around and recording which angles generated the most power at which times of day, etc...

[goontron]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

Thanks for all of that.

Does the material in the solar cell degrade? How long do they last? Do they have to be cleaned? How often? Is there a niche service industry doing periodic cleaning of solar panels? Like cleaning swimming pools?

I don't understand why these aren't more common, especially here in Texas. It's free electricity, from the sun, once you've paid off the cost of the devices and their installation.

Also what about tracking? I've read some mentions that some panels move to follow the sun. Does the power cost in doing this impact total energy created? I have this idea of a sun-powered computer controlling each panel, moving each individual panel independently so that the power it creates is maximized. Little servo motors constantly moving the panel around and recording which angles generated the most power at which times of day, etc...

Panels do degrade. First 5 years they lose 5%, then after that it slows considerably, leveling out after about 30 years at 85%

You do want to clean them. How often depends on your environment. About every month for here on northern CO. I know some cleaning companies offer panel cleaning.

For tracking, you have panels in clusters. Four to eight. Commercial you see more. They follow the sun to optimise power generation and are computerized.
The power draw is negligible. The computer run at around 2-3 watts and the motors pull around 12 watts every time they move (every couple of hours). Some High power systems record the sun position. Most just "learn" and track the sun through learned positions and power output of the panels.

I once had a link to a local counties 3MW solar project.... I seem to have lost it.

[ZnsaneRyder]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

I would rather store my excess power into batteries then try to "sell" my extra watts back to the company. Use the cost savings to buy more batteries. Even use the $$$ saved to have spare batteries for backup.

Power outages DO HAPPEN, and in some places very often, so when you are selling your excess watts to the power company, then your power is out, you are only screwing yourself, as you still have no electricity during an emergency.

I keep two paralleled 12V 115AH (230AH) marine batteries in my home with a 1500W Power Inverter, and my utilities are included with my rent, and yet I still keep backup power. Sure is nice to have at night if you blow a breaker or a storm shuts your lights off. And a CFL lasts HOURS AND HOURS off just two batteries.

What is the point of selling your electric back when you may need it?

[eccerr0r]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

Well, the problem is that storage of power is limited (and usually it is!), might well sell back the excess. The trouble being that most batteries are best kept full, and keeping partially empty batteries to keep storing excess may just cause batteries to prematurely fail. Perhaps a hybrid of NiMH/Li-ion and Pb, but unfortunately the expensive batteries are better suited for partial storage... Drat.

I've been wondering about a solar system, but it's more for backup in case grid power fails (and to keep my server and more importantly food storage uptime up :-)). However it seems really expensive and the payback time is still very long.

But it was fun having a spare storage backup battery during a blackout.

[Jack Crow]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

Speaking of battery storage...

Found something interesting.

Very often pb Acid units are swapped out on a schedule.
Same deal with units in standby service.

So there is considerable life left in some batteries that are turned in for recycling.

So if you can only get 900amp hours out of a 1200 amp cell pack, and can get it for free, why the heck not. You can recycle it later.

This idea came to me when I saw what was on a recycling pallet at one of those batteries plus stores.

Do you know anybody who maintain's buildings. How fixes the big UPS's for computer rooms? Telco switching centers? Big cells are around it's just a matter of finding them.

My radio club in New York got a bunch of 1000 amp 2 volt cells from a telco switching center that would keep the club repeater on the air for a couple of days with a power dump.

Share a thought.
Jack Crow

[stj]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

you should talk to people who work in a telephone exchange - those places used to have an entire floor sometimes just dedicated to battery's to keep the network up in a power failure.

[CapLeaker]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

Grid Tie here works like this: The power company allows you to install a system capable of generating power as much as you need in a year. So all extra power generated in the summer goes onto a "bank". In the winter when I am not making much power, the extra power I need gets deducted of that same bank. Once in a year there is a anniversary date and if I still have a few hundred / thousand KWh's left, I get a cheque. KWh's are traded 1:1 here. 1KWh = CAD$ 0.14800
All I am paying on power bill per year is the basic fee every 2 months for like $22. That's it. At the end of that year I get a cheque which roughly covers the connection fee. So basically I pay $0 all year for electricity now.

[desert-rat]

Re: Want to Learn About Solar Panels

If you look on amazon , ebay , ect. you can find lots of p.v. cells , whole panels , inverters , ect. There is lots of stuff for the diy er . There are solar forums . There are easy to find . You dont need to feed it in to the grid . Lest say you have a evap. cooler with a 1/2 hp motor , you could have a home made panel just large enough to run it . A panel , batteries , and inverter .