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**gonzo0815** · 07-16-2006, 04:23 PM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

200mV aren`t that mutch, but probably the ripple has been increased when output power was a litle higher.
In any way, your recap list seems to be somhow overkill, i think this will suite your needs very well.
I won`t go mutch higher with the caps, as you don`t know how this will impact the regulation of this darn psu.

For the i/P caps i would only replace them, if they have lost some capacity already. Even if those caps aren`t from best brand, thy aren`t that delicat like those tiny ultral low esr caps. The manufacturing proces is well known since a very long time, may be even the ugliest brand will get them produced in a fairly high quality.
In any way, those high voltage caps are very common and are readily availiable at every little elektronic store in Germany....

**trodas** · 07-16-2006, 04:59 PM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

And do you rate this as overkill even if you include the fanless operation?
I mean - bigger cap dissipate heat better - because it is bigger

And I think that increasing the capacity to 2.2x for the 12V and 3.3x times for 5 and 3.3V rails should cure the PSU from killing my mobo...

As for the imput ones, I better take a look and ask. As long as I see there a Hec cap, I'm not happy. What about at http://digi-key.com 493-2519-ND - the Nichion LS cap LLS2D681MELZ ...? It is d22x40 suxxka, 3000h rated at 85°C and can deliver 2480mA (680uF / 200V as need)

There are also a Nichicon GU type sold, but this one deliver only 1780mA, while rest of specs are almost same (105°C, tough)

And I never measured it, so how can I know if they lost some capacity?

And a intresting remark. I knew beforehand that my server got BAD CAPS inside. Yet I waited till problems arise with the recap. Now problems arised and my mobo is dead.

Still think that in case of knowingly bad caps is waiting a good idea? Then hand me one the Infineon 15N03L mosfet, please... I lost it (and jew know what else...) when the caps blow up and problems arise so freaking fast, that I had lost control over them...

**gonzo0815** · 07-17-2006, 02:53 AM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

The fanless operation requires only good branded and long life high temp caps, nothing else. But ok, the bigger the more elektrolyt the longer it needs to dry out. So i suggest some of the long life caps lines from Rubycon. And may be it is better to increase the capacity on all rails at the same ratio, so go on the 12v a little higher, may be 3300uf /16v if you can obtain that size. As far es i know, the 12v rails is left floating, e.g there is no regulation on that line. If the capacity will increase on the low voltage o/p, may be the 12v line will go low.

Those I/P caps seems to be fine, may be if you find a modern typ with lower esr it will improve efficiency, but i don`t think this will be a mather on that device. Your rated ripple current capability isn`t correct, as it depends on the frequency. And as far as i have understand that, for the i/P caps this isonly 50/60Hz, wich will reduce the ripple current rating to 1.79A.
If Money isn`t a concern, i think 820uf will not hurt anything.
The most important cap on that device is for shure the little 22uF/50v cap. If this one fails, depending if the unit is powered on or not the whol system will get fried. So there i would go with high voltage (as there are realy high voltage spikes on that cap) and doubled capacity and most reliable brand / type. I considered even some 125°c caps for those caps in afected psu`s with that desing. But anything well branded with 47uf/63v 105°c should be sufficient. This caps should be the last one failing.

**Rainbow** · 07-17-2006, 03:28 AM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

I replace that 22uF/50V cap always with 47uF/63V 105 degC, usually Jamicon.
Many of these PSUs came with HEC but some came with Jamicons. Jamicons are still good after some years of use, only the capacitance is slightly lower (e.g. 18uF instead of 22) but HECs go down to 4uF (or so) and the PSU dies, requiring some more work (replacing TL494 and often some transistors).
And don't believe what multimeter says in the PSU. It shows effective voltage (more-or-less) but there can be spikes. And I bet they're on this cap - that's why it dies first. If you replace it with 16V one, it will probably not last long.

**Per Hansson** · 07-17-2006, 05:01 AM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

Trodas; you have that big copper plate connected between primary and secondary heatsinks, that can be baaad, I just wanted to add this for anyone else thinking about doing the same

A short in the primary side might send 230VAC to the secondary side, plus in most PSU designs the primary heatsink already holds about 160VAC when operating normally...

**trodas** · 07-17-2006, 05:53 AM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

gonzo0815 - exactly my point and exactly why I think that increasing the capacity is not overshoot. However the growing concern is now about the four (to simplifie the parts list, let's join these 22uF and 47uF ones) caps. You sound like one should look for 47uF 50V ceramic cap (I wish they made it, 100uF 6.3V or 47uF 16V are made, but not 50V and 47uF....) or some solid polymer ones...
Well, I wish I can, but I have no stash of the 47uF 50V ones and neither Joe ATM. Futhermore Rainbow recommending even higher rated, 63V ones...

And I have no source for Rubycons. If I had source, I would already recapped the PSU with them, of course...

Rainbow - I would not trust Jamicons much, they are great in the audio-stuff, however they do suxx in computers. Sure it is better to use 47uF 63V Jamicon there that 22uF 50V failing Hec - that is for damn sure. However I would much more like to see there some Pannyes, Nichicons, Rubycons or Samxons to do the job...
Anyway, I'm perfectly aware that DMM measure average voltage only - that is why I used oscilloscope and set it to measure the min and max spikes

The only problem was, that in the middle of measuring the battery give up, so some measurments aren't with scope - but I will repeat these measuring soon - I modded the scope to accept a power on from external source and there we go - hehe

Per Hansson - I'm perfectly aware that there is a big cooper plate between the heatsinks. In fact, if you check more of the pictures of this fanless PSU mod there: http://ax2.old-cans.com/g.php?p=silentpc&d=1&v=v2
You quickly discover that the cooper plate is screwed to the PSU casing and this is screwed to the computer case. Both are grounded

Now - don't you think that I choosen this particular PSU to mod, because it do not have any voltage present during operation on either of these aluminium heatsinks?

Therefore I can shortcut them easily and w/o worry about a thing. And a failure on primary side might send high voltage to it? No dubt about it. But that is why there is a fuse + the PSU case is well grounded. So any failure kill the fuse, because it is all grounded and therefore do no harm to either user, and likely not even to the mobo itself.

PS. yet I have concern about safety of the primary side with Hec caps - that is why it looks like I need another Digi-Key order of the Nichicons to make the primary side recapped sooner or later. Maybe better sooner...

**Rainbow** · 07-17-2006, 08:32 AM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

63V is not probably needed - I just bought the best caps available in the shop, but not exceeding the capacitance too much.

**trodas** · 07-17-2006, 11:43 AM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

First - a correction. I made terrible mistake, there is 3 of these 47uF 50V caps, witch bring the total number of caps need for the PSU recap by one more up - now 5 pieces of the 47uF 35 - 63V caps are need, not 4 pieces...

Eurocase PSU
-------------
2x 680uF 200V Nichion LS cap LLS2D681MELZ
1x 2200uF 16V d10
4x 3300uF 6.3V d10
3x 470uF 16V
5x 47uF 50V (can be 35V only)
5x 10uF 16V ceramic SMD ones

-------------------------------------

Rainbow - so I took the time to properly measure with oscilloscope the MAXIMAL spikes I find on the caps. It is for the 47uF ones as follows - 27V, 26V and 15V. Both these 22uF ones has 15V maximal spikes.
(in fact, is was 14.7V and such, but I rounded it up...

)
Conclusion - a 35V cap is enough there. I won't not recommend to stretch 25V caps there, for safety, but they proably should hold it - maybe

Case closed. Now just get the quality caps - no, I won't go for Jamicon, not in MY PSU...

**Spacedye69** · 07-17-2006, 01:10 PM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

How much difference on the 47uf caps would it make to use 39uf if they are 63v? Also, I would assume the little caps need to be low esr also?

**gonzo0815** · 07-17-2006, 05:17 PM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

At least the one most important cap, the one wich stabilizes the Vcc for the SMPS controler chip, has not to bee low esr. It only has to provide the capacity to maintain the voltage high enough for the proper operation of the ic.Therefore there is noting speciall on that caps, only endurance is important. If the smps chip looses the power during operation of the PSU the regulation of the switching transistor will be get out of control. This will lead to a catastrophic high voltage on the output of the psu wich will kill in most cases all connected components and the psu too.

I don`t know the purpose of the other small caps, but i doN´t think that those small caps are for filtering the o/p voltage. So i think it is safe to choose non low esr too.
Regarding the voltage, i think there is not mutch difference in price, availiavbility and size. So i would certainly go with the 63v ones. I al those books regarding elektronic i have read as child, they always stated that a cap should at least rated 20v above the highest operating voltage. So in that case i would go a little further, due to the additionall benefits a higher voltage cap will give here.

Regarding that interconecting cooper hs, it for shure voids the VDE and probably the UL and CE isolation standards, wich requireIMHO 8 mm betwen the high pot and secondary side. It is the mather wich is on watercooled psu`s.

**trodas** · 07-18-2006, 12:00 PM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

Spacedye69 - I measured the highest spike a little over 27V (27.2, IIRC) witch means that 35V cap is fine there. Yet since the 35V and 50V versions of Panny FC 47uF did not differ in size, I go with the 50V one - just in case. The capacitance drop (eg. cap have less capacitance when used on voltage that is too low from the rated one) was unsucesfully discused there:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1803
Yet I still fear overshooting with the voltage, so I won't go over the 50V for sure

Maybe with 56uF then...

Cap's in PSU aren't usualy need to be low ESR, tough it surely won't be bad, if they are. One could expect cleaner voltage and maybe even cooler operation. (when these hi-end suxxkas run on easy load, they did not produce much heat - witch lead to long lifespan)
Talking about low ESR caps - how "low ESR" you think these Hec caps are?

gonzo0815 - What "additionall benefits" a higher voltage cap will give here? I just want to know...

And - if not 20V overshooting? Then Vcore caps has to be 22V ones, witch is, as you know, impossible since they would become crazy big... And these polymer ones, 2 or 4V ones that run very closely on the voltages - these are useless accoring to your books?

I think is safe to worry about both - undervolting the cap and overvolting as well

And about my cooling - well, it for sure violate many standards and norms, however I did not give a sh*t for obvious reasons - I want fanless and I get fanless

And 8mm? That need around 40 000V to pass trough - we using only 230V there

Now let's put away childish things and guys - help me to decide the input caps!
(no, I won't like to see the Hec's there anymore...)

I find on Digi-key two candidates. Nichicon and Panasonic.

Nichicon LS 820uF 200V d25x35 Load life is 3000h at 85°C and nice ripple - 2790mA

Panasonic TS-ED 680uF 200V r22x45 Load life is 3000h but 105°C and ripple - see page SIX on TWO paged document - so, ripple is unknown and that is all the decision problem I have now...

The problem is, that Nichicon LS cost 5.94# - verzus 3.76$ for Panny. I won't blink once to pay the higher price IF the Nichicon is better in the ripple.
The Panny specs claim "Highest ripple current capability for demanding inverter applications, TS-ED Series 105°C, 3000 hours" - but what the hell is the "highest ripple" and why they are so much cheaper that Nichicons?

It simply worry me, so, what do you guys think? Go with Panny for the 105°C and believe it have at least comparable rippe for the price, or go with Nichicon with all known parameters and expect quality for the price?

Remember, lads, I got THERE of these PSUs and I'm going to recap them all, after sucesfull recap of the fanless one, of course

**gonzo0815** · 07-18-2006, 05:34 PM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

Well, in theory the decision on the i/p caps is simple: if heat is the problem go with high temp and long endurance, if ripple current is the problem take low esr. In my opinion if they stated they should be good for converter take the panasonics, i thrust them to do it right. Probably they have the same spec, may be a somhow decreased ripple curent rating according to their capacity. If the higher capacity will make you proud, take those. I think the higher price tag of those nichicon is due tho their larger size.

Regarding those small caps: my books are written for gpo caps & linear analog circuits. So this kind of "overengineering " isn`t affordable in the age of smps and very high currents. But in the case of power decoupling for an IC which will probably don`t need more than a few mA i don`t think that we need some low ESR, and for GPO caps this overkill will not harm you and will give more saefty, more endurance.

For the rest, e.g O/P caps you for shure need low ESR, but not those very very low esr caps like MCZ, KZG, MBZ (all are in the range of <0,02 ohm). I think some low ESR caps like FC, YXX, KZE and the like. Or in other words, caps without water (if have that undrestand right) and long endurance. The ripple currents aren an issue there, but heat, dust and heat and reliability are somhow more important.

**trodas** · 07-19-2006, 05:09 AM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

gonzo0815 -

I think the higher price tag of those nichicon is due tho their larger size.

Wrong. A Nichicon 680uF 200V LS cost $5.25 - almost the same as the 820uF one and still far from the $3.76 for Panny. Check Digi-Key Part Number 493-2519-ND - they don't have it stock, tough

Still no reply for Panaconis:

Hello support. I need to know the ripple current for EETED2D681BA part - a Panasonic TS-ED 680uF 200V capacitor. Into the pdf datasheet on this webpage is stated "specified ripple current (see page 6)" - however the document have only pages 1 and 2. Therefore the ripple is unknown for me and I would like to know it - thanks for reply and I hope the datasheet get fixed too

**yanz** · 07-19-2006, 08:30 PM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

in my area, a chemy KMH 25mm 820uF 200V cap will cost $0.5. that's why i have no hesitating to replace those big caps in every cheap psus i recap.

**gonzo0815** · 07-19-2006, 09:29 PM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

That`s cheap ;-) may be i can get one for about 5 to 8€, unless it is sourced from an surpluss store with limited selection. So for most PSU there is no economic in replacing those.

**yanz** · 07-19-2006, 10:02 PM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

in developing country like indonesia, people use their pc mostly for forever, (almost) no upgrading and they will fix whatever can be fixed. i mention about ordinary user, not a gamer, profesional, or enthusiast.

here in bandung city for example, we have a place/market where you can buy lot of p3 systems or lower (celeron/p2/duron) for cheap price. they who come to this place are usually from small office, academic/school for their lab, or just a student with low budget.

i was one seeing many death brown capxon on primary caps on acer computer psu. also on some cheap psus i recap, replacing those big can with the chemys really cure the instability. with my limited equipment and knowledge, that experiences teach me that those input caps can be bad, but replacing them would be the last step in recaping psu (after the small caps, scottchky, bridge rec, cables, and else).

with that habit (using pc for forever until it broke, can't be fixed again), surely you can understand why i think replacing those big caps, in this situation, is necessary. degrading performance are inevitable, but it still amaze me to see some old pc survive 5 years of use after recaping and still working (i see there are a lot of recappers in my town, they import containers of computer component from oustide the country: singapore, malaysia, etc, fix them and resale them. this have been for years.)

people dont talk about badcaps a lot in internet, but in real life it is a known problem. it is understandable because those recapers, altough they are profesionals, they hardly ever touch internet at all. but having a conversation with them always fun

...well, if you think those KMH are cheap, than i must say that if you search for a little better spec caps like KMM or panasonic TH, they are $2 and $1

sorry for a blurb...

**gonzo0815** · 07-20-2006, 12:52 AM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

Yeah, if people need thing on a larger scale, the needed goods will find the way to them. But here in Germany all is expensive, especially labour time. As most people have no clue for what reason their system failed they just went out and buy a new one. Even if they know, they probably won`t think about repairing. So there is no mutch need for caps, especially for those very speciall computer cpas like small, low esr etc. If labour is that mutch more expensive than buying new goods from China or Taiwan, there is no market for caps and recapping.

**yanz** · 07-21-2006, 08:30 PM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

Yup, probably it will be beyond economical repair with such high labour cost (and part cost) for electronic equipments unless they are rare items/specific custom or unobtainium in real market.

I remember that Stretch has made an interesting article about it. (the throw away world). If Topcat allow to host fontpage articles that written by the forum members, there will be a lot of good thread that (IMO) qualified for such.

**yanz** · 07-21-2006, 08:35 PM

Re: Eurocase 350W PSU

...well, if you think those KMH are cheap, than i must say that if you search for a little better spec caps like KMM or panasonic TH, they are $2 and $1

my bad, it's panasonic HA (TS-HA) not TH. and KMM is only better than KMH in its longevity (3000h KMM compared to 2000h KMH).

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Eurocase 350W PSU

Eurocase 350W PSU

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