It just keeps blowing...

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  • madan1
    Badcaps Veteran
    • Nov 2016
    • 670
    • Bulgaria

    #1

    It just keeps blowing...

    Howdy everyone.
    I got a non-working denon avr2801 from ebay. Since it was (almost) for free I just changed the fuse, powered it up and I got a pretty good bonfire from one of the "non-burning" resistors . OK, I have another blown amplifier.. cool, change the blown parts and I'm good.. at least that's what I thought back then .
    While I was waiting for the parts, I removed the blown transistors, assembled it and hooked it to my home audio setup... maaan this denon sounds great!
    I got the parts ( the power transistors, the diodes and the zener diodes were all substitutes ). Soldered everything on the pcb, checked it for any visual damage ( after the fire ), crosschecked the resistance of every component with the same on a working channel.. everything was good to go. Powered it up and.... bang! another bonfire from a brand new "non-burning" resistor.
    Removed the new set of blown transistors and just left it for a resident amplifier.
    A week ago I was out of things to repair and decided to finally fix that receiver ( I also wanted to try a new music setup for which I needed one more working channel ).
    Alrighty.. got new transistors, new resistors, new diodes.. well pretty much the standard thing. This time I also thoroughly checked the pre-amp board and the output circuitry for faulty elements. I also tested out of the board TR540 and TR528 together with a set from a working channel.
    This time I was totally sure that everything should be fine... and while I was brushing out the flux residue I noticed that there was something wrong with the path between R614 and ZD506. The path is less than 1mm wide / ~10mm long and was interrupted right in the middle of its length. So I guess this explains the enormous amount of damage the channel had ( indeed this is the first time I'm changing that many elements on a blown channel ). Made a bridge, checked again all paths for interruptions and assembled everything back.
    Power.. bang!... only smoke and a flash from the fuse this time .
    At first glance, this time, it blew only the power transistors and few resistors ( R622, R620, R624 and most likely the emitter resistors ). The pre-stage ones ( tr534/532 ) seem to be fine and currently the receiver is working with them on the board ( but with removed R620 ).
    So I already purchased the emitter resistors ( turned out those are hard to find ) and in the next days I will also get the power transistors, but... damn, I do not want another fire.. I almost have paid for transistors what I paid for the whole receiver.

    How do you proceed when fixing blown channels?
    Are there any procedures you do before powering up the unit?
    From the damage, do you see an element which might be faulty?
    Any advices are welcome!

    Also, with what standard parts would you substitute ZD506/508 and D534/536?


    The first picture is with the damage after the first repair attempt ( before I discover the broken path b/n r614 and zd506 ) and the second one - after the second ( with fixed path ).

    specs:
    https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_li...avr-2801.shtml
    Attached Files
  • keeney123
    Lauren
    • Sep 2014
    • 2536
    • United States

    #2
    Re: It just keeps blowing...

    Are you sure TR536 is a NPN and TR538 is a PNP ? It would seem both transistors are turning on at the same time

    Comment

    • madan1
      Badcaps Veteran
      • Nov 2016
      • 670
      • Bulgaria

      #3
      Re: It just keeps blowing...

      Well... here is the service manual and it says tr532 - 2sd1763a and tr534 - 2sb1186a. Those at least are easy to find, so no replacements here.

      p.s. Oh, you mean the main power transistors.
      The original are TR536 - 2sc3855, TR538 - 2SA1491.. let me see if I can find here ( at the office ) what I got last time as a replacement





      ithe manual is too big to upload here, so use these links

      http://www.filedropper.com/hfedenonavr-2801981serviceen
      Last edited by madan1; 03-01-2017, 08:09 PM.

      Comment

      • keeney123
        Lauren
        • Sep 2014
        • 2536
        • United States

        #4
        Re: It just keeps blowing...

        Are you doing the adjustment on page 12? So your problem is happening on the surround sound R channel? This is happening when no speaker are connected?
        Last edited by keeney123; 03-01-2017, 11:04 PM.

        Comment

        • jiroy
          Badcaps Legend
          • Jun 2016
          • 2416
          • Lebanon

          #5
          Re: It just keeps blowing...

          Originally posted by madan1
          Howdy everyone.

          Are there any procedures you do before powering up the unit?
          From the damage, do you see an element which might be faulty?
          Any advices are welcome!
          Using a variac would spare you lot of excessive costs . It let you also localize the gradually heated area ..

          Comment

          • Khron
            Badcaps Legend
            • Sep 2006
            • 1350
            • Finland

            #6
            Re: It just keeps blowing...

            A variac and/or a series "bulb tester"... Not to mention the thought of NOT just swapping a fuse if the previous one blew.
            Khron's Cave - Electronics - Audio - Teardowns - Mods - Repairs - Projects - Music - Rants - Shenanigans

            Comment

            • petehall347
              Badcaps Legend
              • Jan 2015
              • 4424
              • United Kingdom

              #7
              Re: It just keeps blowing...

              remove outputs and tack in a 1k resistor between base and emitter connections for each output .
              check dc voltage on output ..

              Comment

              • madan1
                Badcaps Veteran
                • Nov 2016
                • 670
                • Bulgaria

                #8
                Re: It just keeps blowing...

                So just checked what main transistors I got last time from the local shop - they are a pair of SanKen 2SC3856 - 2SA1492


                Originally posted by keeney123
                Are you doing the adjustment on page 12? So your problem is happening on the surround sound R channel? This is happening when no speaker are connected?
                No, I adjust the bias once I have a fully working channel.
                The maiden power-up is always without speakers attached.
                Yes, the SurrRight is the blown channel.



                Originally posted by jiroy
                Using a variac would spare you lot of excessive costs . It let you also localize the gradually heated area ..
                Yes, variac would be perfect, but the electronics repair is still just a hobby and I'm trying to keep my hobby running costs low .

                Originally posted by Khron
                A variac and/or a series "bulb tester"... Not to mention the thought of NOT just swapping a fuse if the previous one blew.
                can you provide more info about the "bulb tester" ( good link would be just fine ).
                Yes, just swaping fuses is not a good idea, but back then, when I got the AVR I needed to see if there is any life left in it ( the seller did not provide any information about the unit's faults ) and the thing was so cheap I really didn't care if it will live or die on me .

                Originally posted by petehall347
                remove outputs and tack in a 1k resistor between base and emitter connections for each output .
                check dc voltage on output ..
                By "outputs" you mean the main transistors, right? What power rate should be the 1k resistors?
                What should I check on the dc?



                -----------------

                and here are some good screenshots from the last bonfire
                It looks like this time one of the emitter resistors blew.
                Attached Files

                Comment

                • Khron
                  Badcaps Legend
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 1350
                  • Finland

                  #9
                  Re: It just keeps blowing...

                  http://www.ppinyot.com/dimbulb/dim_bulb_tester.htm

                  https://antiqueradio.org/dimbulb.htm

                  http://www.geek-tips.com/2015/11/22/dim-bulb-tester/
                  Khron's Cave - Electronics - Audio - Teardowns - Mods - Repairs - Projects - Music - Rants - Shenanigans

                  Comment

                  • petehall347
                    Badcaps Legend
                    • Jan 2015
                    • 4424
                    • United Kingdom

                    #10
                    Re: It just keeps blowing...

                    i have used 1/4 watt resistors in place of the output transistors no problem ... they are used to keep the feedback path intact whilst testing . it also saves on output transistors blowing up .
                    check dc volts where the emitter resistors join together .it should be zero volts .. few mv is ok .

                    Comment

                    • keeney123
                      Lauren
                      • Sep 2014
                      • 2536
                      • United States

                      #11
                      Re: It just keeps blowing...

                      I would concentrate on were your second picture is. That is the two transistors. To blow both transistors it tells you to much current went through them. They are connected together. One connected to the B+ voltage and one to the B- voltage VR504 as all the VR adjustments need to start fully counter Clockwise. When you measure at TP 504 you then need to bring it up to a very low voltage. If these transistors are fully turned on I only see a 0.22 resistor between them.

                      Comment

                      • keeney123
                        Lauren
                        • Sep 2014
                        • 2536
                        • United States

                        #12
                        Re: It just keeps blowing...

                        Resistor R620 333 ohms fried. I am not sure what NB means. Yet the two front end transistors did not fry. I am not sure why R 624 or R 622 did not fry unless their wattage is higher then R620. To fry R 620 the current path had to go through TR538 collector/base, R 624, R620, R 622 and TR 536 Base/Collector

                        Comment

                        • madan1
                          Badcaps Veteran
                          • Nov 2016
                          • 670
                          • Bulgaria

                          #13
                          Re: It just keeps blowing...

                          NB = non-burning ( which seems not to be always the case )
                          R620 - Carbon film 330 ohm 1/4W(NB)
                          R622,624 - Carbon film 1 ohm 1/4W(NB)


                          I have not checked any of the resistors with e multimeter... just the transistors. I checked the resistors only visually and cut R620 so that I can close the hood.
                          When the parts arrive, I will disassemble the boards and test everything.

                          By the way, could faulty emitter resistors cause this damage?
                          Now I remember that I got good ohm readings on them and decided not to change them.

                          Comment

                          • keeney123
                            Lauren
                            • Sep 2014
                            • 2536
                            • United States

                            #14
                            Re: It just keeps blowing...

                            Originally posted by madan1
                            NB = non-burning ( which seems not to be always the case )
                            R620 - Carbon film 330 ohm 1/4W(NB)
                            R622,624 - Carbon film 1 ohm 1/4W(NB)


                            I have not checked any of the resistors with e multimeter... just the transistors. I checked the resistors only visually and cut R620 so that I can close the hood.
                            When the parts arrive, I will disassemble the boards and test everything.

                            By the way, could faulty emitter resistors cause this damage?
                            Now I remember that I got good ohm readings on them and decided not to change them.


                            So the amount of current needed to fry the 330 1/4 watt resistor would be 27.5 mA at 8.33 volts or any combination of voltage and current that would give 1/4watt. The other 1 ohm resistors must of had less voltage on them and therefore did not get to 1/4 watt.

                            Also, when you get the new transistors very with ohm meter that they are NPN and PNP.

                            On the original PNP the base can take up to 4 amps of current.
                            Last edited by keeney123; 03-02-2017, 02:48 PM.

                            Comment

                            • budm
                              Badcaps Legend
                              • Feb 2010
                              • 40746
                              • USA

                              #15
                              Re: It just keeps blowing...

                              If you look at the service manual, you will see for example, the BASE of Q534 goes out to the Collector of the driver Transistor TR828 another section as shown in PDF schematic 6/13 PDF page 91, if that transistor has bad leakage it will bias on Q534 on hard and will cause the direct couple circuit have bad chain effect, so you should check that transistor and the other two differential pair Transistors. All the amps has the same setup, the driver Transistors are on another section.
                              Never stop learning
                              Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                              Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                              Inverter testing using old CFL:
                              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

                              Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
                              http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                              TV Factory reset codes listing:
                              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

                              Comment

                              • keeney123
                                Lauren
                                • Sep 2014
                                • 2536
                                • United States

                                #16
                                Re: It just keeps blowing...

                                Originally posted by budm
                                If you look at the service manual, you will see for example, the BASE of Q534 goes out to the Collector of the driver Transistor TR828 another section as shown in PDF schematic 6/13 PDF page 91, if that transistor has bad leakage it will bias on Q534 on hard and will cause the direct couple circuit have bad chain effect, so you should check that transistor and the other two differential pair Transistors. All the amps has the same setup, the driver Transistors are on another section.

                                Question wouldn't C506 stop that from happening with just DC?

                                Comment

                                • budm
                                  Badcaps Legend
                                  • Feb 2010
                                  • 40746
                                  • USA

                                  #17
                                  Re: It just keeps blowing...

                                  C506 is just filter cap, if you at the other page of the schematic, you will see that the Base is connected directly to the Collector of the driver circuit.
                                  Attached Files
                                  Last edited by budm; 03-03-2017, 05:20 PM.
                                  Never stop learning
                                  Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                                  Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                                  Inverter testing using old CFL:
                                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

                                  Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
                                  http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                                  TV Factory reset codes listing:
                                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

                                  Comment

                                  • petehall347
                                    Badcaps Legend
                                    • Jan 2015
                                    • 4424
                                    • United Kingdom

                                    #18
                                    Re: It just keeps blowing...

                                    what is all short open all about ? i never seen that before

                                    Comment

                                    • budm
                                      Badcaps Legend
                                      • Feb 2010
                                      • 40746
                                      • USA

                                      #19
                                      Re: It just keeps blowing...

                                      Originally posted by petehall347
                                      what is all short open all about ? i never seen that before
                                      The schematic is the master schematic that has all the parts (so the PCB foot-print of all the parts will show in the PCB CAD program) for making PCB, then you stuff the board with parts for the board assembly (PCBA) with the particular function that you need per BOM of the PCBA, so one blank board can be stuffed hundred ways.
                                      Never stop learning
                                      Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                                      http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                                      Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                                      http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                                      Inverter testing using old CFL:
                                      http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

                                      Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
                                      http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                                      TV Factory reset codes listing:
                                      http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

                                      Comment

                                      • keeney123
                                        Lauren
                                        • Sep 2014
                                        • 2536
                                        • United States

                                        #20
                                        Re: It just keeps blowing...

                                        Originally posted by budm
                                        C506 is just filter cap, if you at the other page of the schematic, you will see that the Base is connected directly to the Collector of the driver circuit.

                                        Sorry these dyslectic eyes played tricks on me. I had thought C506 was connected to the B+

                                        Comment

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