What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

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  • Uniballer
    Badcaps Veteran
    • Jul 2013
    • 334
    • USA

    #21
    Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

    As the others said, you can do a lot with a 100MHz scope. I think that is a good place to start.

    Originally posted by lookimback
    So, if I found something that was 500mhz, it would work for any signal 0 to 500mhz right?
    Not exactly. A 500MHz scope can display a 500MHz sine wave. You will need a lot more bandwidth to display a nice 500MHz square wave. A square wave is made up of the primary frequency plus its odd harmonics. You will start seeing something square-ish when the bandwidth is about 5 times the signal frequency. 10 times would be better.

    Also, beware that many early digital storage scopes have low sample rates. For example, many early TEK and HP storage scopes have 100MS/s rates with higher bandwidth front ends. A scope like this needs to sample a periodic waveform repeatedly to show anything useful near the scopes bandwidth, so it is only useful for non-repeating signals at much lower frequencies. You generally need to sample at 4 to 10 times the frequency of your signal for non-repetitive signals.

    Don't forget that the probes you use have a lot to do with what you see. The cheap 100MHz probes from ebay are fine for general purpose troubleshooting and seeing low speed signals, but to make good use of a 500MHz scope you will need serious probes, and they are not cheap. Even real TEK or HP 500MHz passive probes often may not show you what you want to see because of probe capacitance, etc.
    Last edited by Uniballer; 01-19-2015, 08:39 AM.

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    • Uniballer
      Badcaps Veteran
      • Jul 2013
      • 334
      • USA

      #22
      Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

      Originally posted by keeney123
      What does everyone think about the Tektronix MDO3000 6 in 1 scope.
      Haven't used one myself, but the word on the street is that certain other products have more bang for the buck (did that phrase originally refer to guns, or hookers?).

      EEVblog #587 – Tektronix MDO3000 Mixed Domain Oscilloscope Teardown

      Dave Jones on MDO3000 #thumbsdown

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      • lookimback
        Badcaps Legend
        • Aug 2013
        • 1489
        • USA

        #23
        Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

        Thank you all for the help on this. I definitely didn't have a clue before, and now I got a good idea of what to look for.
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        • lookimback
          Badcaps Legend
          • Aug 2013
          • 1489
          • USA

          #24
          Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

          I think I'm going to get a Rigol DS1052E since it can be easily software hacked to be 100mhz. I'm thankful for everyone's input on this. If not for the advice, I would probably have gotten a 500mhz scope (thinking I needed more bandwidth), and probably would have ended up spending more on probes than on the scope. I did also have my eye on a Tektronix TDS1012. It's a nice compact scope, and the one I was watching came with original Tektronix probes. However, the deal breaker there was memory constraints. I may have gone with it if there were some hardware hack to increase memory, but there seems to be no such thing. In any event, the Rigol is less expensive and brand new, not to mention way more memory and features.
          Last edited by lookimback; 01-22-2015, 07:13 PM.
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          • capkid
            Badcaps Legend
            • Oct 2010
            • 1339
            • United States

            #25
            Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

            I've had the Rigol DS1052E for a couple years. For the limited use I get out of it, it works well. I applied the hack to boost it up to 100 MHz - made a big difference.
            LG Plasma Mal-Discharge Correction Service

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            • lookimback
              Badcaps Legend
              • Aug 2013
              • 1489
              • USA

              #26
              Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

              I wish I could get the DS2202, but that's about 4 times the price. I think for what I need, it will work. Scopes seem to retain value too, so maybe I'll learn on this and then upgrade in 6 months or a year, and sell this back on eBay.
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              • keeney123
                Lauren
                • Sep 2014
                • 2536
                • United States

                #27
                Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

                Just think 30 years ago a 75 MHz tektronix scope cost $12,000. One could get a Hitachi for $3,000 that would do the same thing. $100 or $200 for a 100 MHZ scope what a deal.

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                • tom66
                  EVs Rule
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 32560
                  • UK

                  #28
                  Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

                  Why would you get a 1052E when $70 more gets you a 1054Z which is MUCH more powerful...?
                  Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
                  For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

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                  • mmartell
                    Badcaps Legend
                    • Oct 2013
                    • 3189
                    • Canada

                    #29
                    Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

                    Because you can get a used 1052e for $225-250 where you'd likely have to purchase the 1054z new.

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                    • lookimback
                      Badcaps Legend
                      • Aug 2013
                      • 1489
                      • USA

                      #30
                      Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

                      Yes, and I don't think you can hack the 1054Z.
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                      • lookimback
                        Badcaps Legend
                        • Aug 2013
                        • 1489
                        • USA

                        #31
                        Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

                        OK, I see you can hack the 1054Z. I may just get that one instead then. I was already looking at new 1052Es anyway. Price isn't that much different.
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                        • tom66
                          EVs Rule
                          • Apr 2011
                          • 32560
                          • UK

                          #32
                          Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

                          Yes, you can fully upgrade the 1054Z hence why it is so popular. I have the 1074Z, it has been upgraded to 24Mpt memory, serial bus analysis, 100MHz B/W, play/record segmented memory, etc.
                          Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
                          For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

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                          • lookimback
                            Badcaps Legend
                            • Aug 2013
                            • 1489
                            • USA

                            #33
                            Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

                            It is a bit of a jump in price. I could get the 1052E now, the 1054Z I'll definitely have to wait a couple more weeks, maybe a month. But, my plan was to be patient and make this a well thought out decision.

                            http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rigol-DS1052...item2592d3e1a9

                            http://www.ebay.com/itm/RIGOL-DS1054...item2c8f81eb25
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                            • lookimback
                              Badcaps Legend
                              • Aug 2013
                              • 1489
                              • USA

                              #34
                              Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

                              Looking at completed listings though, I see that sometimes they go for $400.

                              http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rigol-DS1054...item4d2a089c51
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                              • lookimback
                                Badcaps Legend
                                • Aug 2013
                                • 1489
                                • USA

                                #35
                                Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

                                I see what it is. Everyone is out of stock, and there's like a 4 to 12 week lead time.
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                                • tom66
                                  EVs Rule
                                  • Apr 2011
                                  • 32560
                                  • UK

                                  #36
                                  Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

                                  Yep Rigol is struggling to keep up with the demand - it's an amazing instrument given the price. You might have to spend a little more and get a 70MHz version if you really want it. But IMHO, not worth getting 1052E now, given the specs of the 1054Z, you get far more:

                                  - 4 channel vs 2 channel
                                  - intensity graded display
                                  - fast waveform update
                                  - large widescreen display, 7" vs small 5.7" display, higher resolution too
                                  - 24Mpt vs 1Mpt memory

                                  I really like the segmented memory. You can set scope to record power rail and say BL on/off signal, see if the dip in the power rail corresponds with BL signal dipping, things like that - it will record over days if necessary. I have used this before on a plasma. Could see the Vscn dipping out then TV shut down (old Panasonic panel), but was only really intermittent, so hard to track down with a normal trigger. That was enough info to say SC was at fault vs D/A/P boards.
                                  Last edited by tom66; 01-23-2015, 05:03 AM.
                                  Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
                                  For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

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                                  • lookimback
                                    Badcaps Legend
                                    • Aug 2013
                                    • 1489
                                    • USA

                                    #37
                                    Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

                                    I'm sold. The 2 extra channels and larger screen alone got me. But all the other added features, and I've seen teardowns of Rigol equipment on EEVBlog, they make some nice high quality stuff. One thing I've really learned from this is that, considering the cost of these new scopes, it's no longer even worth buying the old ones anymore. Considering what they sell for (they aren't going for $50 anymore, that's just about the average for shipping), and then you usually have to buy your probes separate, you could pay an extra $100 and have a Rigol with 100 times the functionality.
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                                    • tom66
                                      EVs Rule
                                      • Apr 2011
                                      • 32560
                                      • UK

                                      #38
                                      Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

                                      Try and get a supplier that throws in four probes instead of just two -- I know some of them do.
                                      Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
                                      For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

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                                      • lookimback
                                        Badcaps Legend
                                        • Aug 2013
                                        • 1489
                                        • USA

                                        #39
                                        Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

                                        I saw one that does that, but they have a 12 week lead time. I'm wondering if they'll still be including 4 when it's in stock.
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                                        • Uniballer
                                          Badcaps Veteran
                                          • Jul 2013
                                          • 334
                                          • USA

                                          #40
                                          Re: What frequency limit I should plan for when choosing oscilloscope for TV repair?

                                          Originally posted by lookimback
                                          One thing I've really learned from this is that, considering the cost of these new scopes, it's no longer even worth buying the old ones anymore.
                                          When enough people are paying attention and notice this it will drop the price of the older equipment, except maybe for collectors.

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