LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

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  • Dannyx
    CertifiedAxhole
    • Aug 2016
    • 3912
    • Romania

    #1

    LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

    Good day folks. I've had this cheap and nasty adjustable power supply in the shop for about a year now. It's called "Bakku" (obviously a take on Hakko), though it's not the least bit important, because I've seen this exact same product under many different names and appearances.
    Anyway...less than 2 days ago, this thing dies on me: my colleague tried charging some laptop cells on it but forgot about them and left them connected for more than an hour. The little transformer inside got extremely hot and the primary shorted out, blowing the fuse and rendering the whole thing useless. I took it apart and tried replacing the transformer with a laptop power supply at 24v DC which matched the original voltage of the transformer. It worked to a degree, the voltage adjusted up and down and I was ready to leave it like this, except when I tried charging the laptop cells again, I had to increase the voltage A LOT before the current started going up and when it finally did so, it jumped to around 2a, then something died again and everything dropped to 0. Now I can't figure out what went wrong and why it failed, since it's never failed under heavy loads with its original transformer. The voltage now stays at 0v all the time, so I suspect the output transistor died, despite not showing any shorts. The thing is based on an LM723 although I can't fully understand how it operates in this case. The output transistor is a 2n3055 fed by a B647 PNP. Although I get 22v out of the collector of the B647 and into the base of 2n3055, I get nothing on the ouput (the emitter) of 2n3055....I started drawing the schematic of the thing (though it's far from complete and doesn't include the current sensing side) and I kinda get how it's SUPPOSED to work, although I don't understand why the B647 transistor is not driven by pin 10 Vout, but is instead connected to pin 11 Vc of the LM327...how does such a thing work ? Actually pin 10 is floating :| Let me know if you need any clarifications on the schematic - it's rather messy and not to scale. Don't worry about those breakout connectors - they go to the voltmeter and ammeter on the front panel, which do come on, so I don't think there are any issues there.
    Trying to fix it first and then perhaps increase its current capacity a bit by employing a larger transformer, as that's its main limitation at the moment - the build itself seems stable enough.
    Attached Files
    Wattevah...
  • stj
    Great Sage 齊天大聖
    • Dec 2009
    • 30983
    • Albion

    #2
    Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

    your 3055 could be open-circuit.
    i'v never seen a 723 fail - and worked with hundreds of them - i still have several tubes of new ones.

    Comment

    • R_J
      Badcaps Legend
      • Jun 2012
      • 9535
      • Canada

      #3
      Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

      This looks similar model is PS-1502d under many names
      Attached Files
      Last edited by R_J; 06-22-2017, 01:34 PM.

      Comment

      • eccerr0r
        Solder Sloth
        • Nov 2012
        • 8697
        • USA

        #4
        Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

        What's the voltage at the base of the 2n3055 too, check for bad wire?
        Are you measuring with any load on the output? With these emitter follower designs, it gets confusing when the output (emitter) has no load...

        Comment

        • sam_sam_sam
          Badcaps Legend
          • Jul 2011
          • 6037
          • USA

          #5
          Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

          Check the diode at the output I had one short out on one power supply like one you have and if I remember right once you got to a certain voltage the current would go to full current but would not show anything on the display

          Comment

          • Dannyx
            CertifiedAxhole
            • Aug 2016
            • 3912
            • Romania

            #6
            Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

            Originally posted by eccerr0r
            What's the voltage at the base of the 2n3055 too, check for bad wire?
            Are you measuring with any load on the output? With these emitter follower designs, it gets confusing when the output (emitter) has no load...
            No load attached. The base of the 2n3055 is around 21v, the same as the collector of the PNP one, so I can only assume the 2n3055 is dead like STJ suggested.
            No diodes appear shorted.
            Also, yes, the schematic does look very similar so thanks for that - saves me the headaches
            Wattevah...

            Comment

            • Dannyx
              CertifiedAxhole
              • Aug 2016
              • 3912
              • Romania

              #7
              Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

              The 2n3055 is bad: I got a new one and I get a reading with my meter in diode mode across B-E, whereas with the faulty one I get nothing....still, it doesn't answer the question why it died. My only idea is that the laptop power brick I tried using didn't provide enough current to drive the 2n3055 all the way "on", so it got too hot and died.
              Wattevah...

              Comment

              • sam_sam_sam
                Badcaps Legend
                • Jul 2011
                • 6037
                • USA

                #8
                Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

                Thanks for the info

                Comment

                • eccerr0r
                  Solder Sloth
                  • Nov 2012
                  • 8697
                  • USA

                  #9
                  Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

                  Actually, this 2N3055 is being used in "forward active" mode not "saturated" switch mode, so it's not supposed to be "full on".

                  Unfortunately without more details of what was done with the unit, I can't give any guesses as to why it died with the laptop PSU, assuming it was hooked up correctly... Perhaps the input voltage was too low and the current limiting on the output failed to kick in, and too much base drive was applied? Don't know.

                  Comment

                  • Dannyx
                    CertifiedAxhole
                    • Aug 2016
                    • 3912
                    • Romania

                    #10
                    Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

                    Originally posted by eccerr0r
                    Actually, this 2N3055 is being used in "forward active" mode not "saturated" switch mode, so it's not supposed to be "full on".

                    Unfortunately without more details of what was done with the unit, I can't give any guesses as to why it died with the laptop PSU, assuming it was hooked up correctly... Perhaps the input voltage was too low and the current limiting on the output failed to kick in, and too much base drive was applied? Don't know.
                    Yes, I believe it was hooked up correctly. I left it exactly as it was, except instead of the transformer which was dead, I used the laptop power brick and connected it between the AC legs of the main bridge rectifier. It worked, but when I started loading the output, for some reason the 2n3055 quit. The other PNP driving it is fine though :|
                    Wattevah...

                    Comment

                    • Dannyx
                      CertifiedAxhole
                      • Aug 2016
                      • 3912
                      • Romania

                      #11
                      Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

                      Originally posted by R_J
                      This looks similar model is PS-1502d under many names
                      Yes, doing a search on google, the overall look of the PSU is identical to the one I've got (except for the position of the plugs and knobs which varies here and there).
                      Wattevah...

                      Comment

                      • eccerr0r
                        Solder Sloth
                        • Nov 2012
                        • 8697
                        • USA

                        #12
                        Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

                        I was staring at the schematic here for this particular PSU, when the current limit is reached, does it shut off or does it fold (voltage goes down to ensure it doesn't go over the current limit...)

                        Just trying to understand this schematic...

                        Comment

                        • Dannyx
                          CertifiedAxhole
                          • Aug 2016
                          • 3912
                          • Romania

                          #13
                          Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

                          Originally posted by eccerr0r
                          I was staring at the schematic here for this particular PSU, when the current limit is reached, does it shut off or does it fold (voltage goes down to ensure it doesn't go over the current limit...)

                          Just trying to understand this schematic...
                          My particular one turns off for like a second, makes a LOUD beeping sound (notice that piezo on the board), then turns back on. If the overcurrent condition is still present, it will do it again and again until it's removed, so it's not a proper constant current supply in that respect. It's a constant VOLTAGE supply....still haven't fixed it BTW I replaced the 2N3055 but haven't tried it out, mostly out of laziness....was gonna put an UPS transformer on it, since it doesn't matter as long as the input is roughly 20v input.
                          Wattevah...

                          Comment

                          • eccerr0r
                            Solder Sloth
                            • Nov 2012
                            • 8697
                            • USA

                            #14
                            Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

                            Aha... yeah that's what the schematic looks like what it would do. I was looking for ideas in changing my CV/CC homemade PSU from using a LM317+TIP42 pass to one that uses a 2n3055 + LM723 on hopes for more current and also it seems this combo can go down below 1.2V without a negative supply - I'm thinking it can go to zero just fine.

                            Alas I want CV/CC so I'll have to modify this circuit a bit. The transformer I'm using also is using a 24V 2A CT transformer that I want it to automatically switch between 12V and 24V in hopes that it will both go well past the 12V limit that I have now (since I'm using the other winding as a negative supply) without dissipating double the power...

                            I might have to use a RRIO op amp to do current sense for current limiting (CC) but if I could get away without using an external op amp, that would be good...

                            Comment

                            • Dannyx
                              CertifiedAxhole
                              • Aug 2016
                              • 3912
                              • Romania

                              #15
                              Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

                              Originally posted by eccerr0r
                              Aha... yeah that's what the schematic looks like what it would do. I was looking for ideas in changing my CV/CC homemade PSU from using a LM317+TIP42 pass to one that uses a 2n3055 + LM723 on hopes for more current and also it seems this combo can go down below 1.2V without a negative supply - I'm thinking it can go to zero just fine.

                              Alas I want CV/CC so I'll have to modify this circuit a bit. The transformer I'm using also is using a 24V 2A CT transformer that I want it to automatically switch between 12V and 24V in hopes that it will both go well past the 12V limit that I have now (since I'm using the other winding as a negative supply) without dissipating double the power...

                              I might have to use a RRIO op amp to do current sense for current limiting (CC) but if I could get away without using an external op amp, that would be good...
                              Instead of just fixing this cheapy thing of mine and leaving it as it was before, I was thinking of trying to upgrade it a bit and increase its current rating. If you think about it, the 2n3055 has a 15A maximum current rating, so the series pass part is capable of being pushed some more. Assuming the only limitation was the small transformer originally in it, I can swap that for a big ol' UPS one and hope for the best. I'll also need to tweak the upper threshold for the current limiter so it no longer trips at 1.5A, but instead at, say, 10A....in the bottom right of my first picture, just above that pot, there's an orange trim pot which most likely sets the maximum current threshold...I'll try turning that to see if it changes anything.
                              Another problem might be the PNP transistor driving the 3055, since it might not be able to push enough current into the base of the 3055 to reach 10a...there's a formula to calculate this, Ic / hFe = Ib, where Ic is the collector current I want the 3055 to reach, hFe is the gain of the 3055 (duuh) and Ib is the base current required to reach that Ic...the numbers might be too high for that PNP.
                              Wattevah...

                              Comment

                              • eccerr0r
                                Solder Sloth
                                • Nov 2012
                                • 8697
                                • USA

                                #16
                                Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

                                Keep in mind that even though the 2n3055 may be able to support 15A, there are a lot of other limits that need to be honored else it just won't work as it should - main one being power dissipation (115W typically - if you have a good heat sink). For these series dissipative power supplies, if you have a 19V input and try to draw 1.5V out at 10 amps, you're going to well exceed what the 2n3055 can dissipate.

                                Other sources for massive transformers are the portable heavy old style car battery chargers if anyone is interested...

                                Comment

                                • Dannyx
                                  CertifiedAxhole
                                  • Aug 2016
                                  • 3912
                                  • Romania

                                  #17
                                  Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

                                  Originally posted by eccerr0r
                                  If you have a 19V input and try to draw 1.5V out at 10 amps, you're going to well exceed what the 2n3055 can dissipate
                                  Because 19v*10a=190w (which exceeds the power dissipation of the 2n3055) ? Am I correct ? If so, I should limit the maximum current to around 5a so it's 19v*5a=95w ? I always suck at these, I admit...

                                  Originally posted by eccerr0r
                                  Other sources for massive transformers are the portable heavy old style car battery chargers if anyone is interested...
                                  Have one of those - found it in the dumpster. Not exactly huge, but definitely powerful....don't know how much it can whack out, but I've ran some automotive halogen lamps on it and it didn't even get warm
                                  Wattevah...

                                  Comment

                                  • redwire
                                    Badcaps Legend
                                    • Dec 2010
                                    • 3906
                                    • Canada

                                    #18
                                    Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

                                    Best to have more than one 2N3055. At 20V their absolute max. is 6A as you see in the SOA curve. For long life, I usually half those curves.

                                    Most 3A 0-20V lab PSU's use 2 or 3 2N3055's for the pass-transistor.

                                    2N3055 datasheet
                                    Attached Files

                                    Comment

                                    • budm
                                      Badcaps Legend
                                      • Feb 2010
                                      • 40746
                                      • USA

                                      #19
                                      Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

                                      Originally posted by Dannyx
                                      Because 19v*10a=190w (which exceeds the power dissipation of the 2n3055) ? Am I correct ? If so, I should limit the maximum current to around 5a so it's 19v*5a=95w ? I always suck at these, I admit...

                                      Have one of those - found it in the dumpster. Not exactly huge, but definitely powerful....don't know how much it can whack out, but I've ran some automotive halogen lamps on it and it didn't even get warm
                                      Voltage drops on the pass device x current = power dissipation.
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                                      • Th3_uN1Qu3
                                        Believe in
                                        • Jul 2010
                                        • 6031
                                        • Romania

                                        #20
                                        Re: LM723 adjustable bench PSU not working

                                        And since this is a linear PSU, the voltage drop on the transistor is going to be input voltage (as measured after the bridge rectifier) MINUS output voltage.

                                        So for instance if you have 20V at your bridge rectifier output and you want 5V regulated output at 3A from the transistor, your transistor will dissipate (20-5)*3=45W. If you want 15V at 3A then it will be (20-15)*3=15W. As you can see the worst case conditions are with low output voltage and high current - not high output and high current as logic would lead you to believe.

                                        A single 2N3055 will be good for 2A continuous, no more. Especially at the minimal heatsinking on cheap products like that. You can add more in parallel to increase current capability and reliability - even with the same heatsink, using more power devices at the same output current will make a more reliable supply as the load is spread between them.

                                        When you parallel bipolar transistors like this, they are going to need low value resistors in series with their emitters, 0.22 ohms or thereabouts. These create local negative feedback which balances the current between the transistors. If you just wire them in parallel without any resistors, the hottest transistor will take the most current and it will keep getting hotter until it eventually fails. This is an inherent behavior of the bipolar transistor, the hotter it gets, the lower the voltage drop between C-E gets. The resistors are going to need to be rated for at least 3W, with 5W recommended. If you open an audio amplifier you are going to see the same. Anywhere bipolars are paralelled, the same rules apply.

                                        Only bipolar transistors have this behavior. MOSFET type transistors increase in resistance with temperature rise, so when multiple devices are connected in parallel, they balance themselves out without requiring any resistors.
                                        Last edited by Th3_uN1Qu3; 07-20-2017, 04:25 AM.
                                        Originally posted by PeteS in CA
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