To ground or not to ground… that is the question

[SteveNielsen]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

i'v seen crap like that in 100% plastic,
but it's only allowed for low diameter heating pipes such as underfloor networks.

you cant run cold water or drinking water through them.

"SharkBite® push-fit fittings have been designed, certified, and listed to ASSE 1061 and NSF 61. SharkBite® push-fit fittings are listed by IAPMO and are certified for potable water and hydronic heating water distribution systems."

[Uniballer]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

"SharkBite® push-fit fittings have been designed, certified, and listed to ASSE 1061 and NSF 61. SharkBite® push-fit fittings are listed by IAPMO and are certified for potable water and hydronic heating water distribution systems."

And they are freaking awesome for many applications.

[budm]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Yep, SharkBite makes great stuff. I use them in some of my pipe repair, may be they do not have them in Euro.

[SteveNielsen]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Yes they are, especially in confined spaces where using wrenches would be impossible and soldering could start a fire.

Also electrical codes don't allow using copper water pipe as a safety ground because soldered-only connections are not considered mechanically stable enough.

[budm]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

http://ecmweb.com/design/10-worst-gr...oull-ever-make
http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/gas-pipe-grounding-legal

[SteveNielsen]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

That's good info.

[momaka]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Check for a ground conductor or test the box for ground before you buy anything. You might get lucky.

Alright, will do.
That's one thing that actually didn't cross my mind to do - check if the electrical box is metal and if it is grounded.

I don't need to buy any hardware. I have two GFCI and five non-GFCI 3-prong outlets. I may actually get away with just changing two outlets, so all of that stuff should be more than enough.

That won't be until mid-August, though, so I guess this thread won't be seeing any updates on this project from me for a while.

I would suggest getting the outlet tester as suggested and find out for sure.

I don't like those testers. Can do everything they do with a multimeter (and more).

IT FUCKING HURTS!

ask any tv or satellite installer.
when your up a ladder working on a grounded mount and you touch the coax you fucking know it!!!

Well, you do have 230/240V in Euroland, so I can see how that can hurt quite a bit. Here it's 120V, so half of that would be about 60V AC - I suppose still enough to be felt if you find a good ground and goes through your body. I'll try it and see. Been shocked many times and still not afraid of it

The very first time I ever got shocked was when I was like 4 or 5 years old. We used to live in a old condo with hot water radiators in each room. One of our neighbors must have grounded their hot water heater (or other appliance) to those pipes, because I remember that every time I touched the supply and return pipes on the radiator in the bathroom, I'd feel this funny tingly feeling between my hands as if the surface of the pipes was very rough and pinching my fingers. Didn't know what it was at the time though and never knew pretty much until a few years ago when I started messing with electronics more and got shocked some more .

[Per Hansson]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Just be careful if you are set on doing this momaka, I'm not doubting your abilities at all.
As an example I've installed grounding for the electrical outlets in my apartment too.
But my father is an electrician, so technically I'm allowed to do it if he supervises the work...
I also did ask the landlord before.
The only thing I did that violates code is I did not change all outlets, you need to change all outlets in a given room here to stay in code.
That is the reason the landlord does not want to do it, it's simply too expensive...

The reason I'm writing though is to provide you an example, my neighbor came over yesterday.
The power cable for the fridge had been shorted out because it got cut against some sharp metal, so I helped fix it.
But when I put it back in the compressor did not manage to start, it just made some strange noises & the light in the fridge came on & off.

Measuring I had between 100>200VAC, fluctuating.
First I thought the fridge was bad but then I disconnected it & checked the outlet: 208VAC
It's supposed to be 230VAC, I put the fridge in another outlet and it ran just fine.
Went out to the electrical box & one fuse was dead (measured infinite resistance).
Put a new fuse in and then the outlet measured 230VAC & the fuse ran fine from the original outlet again.
It just goes to show how messed up some house wiring is, and this is a pretty modern apartment (Built in the 1990's)

What I'm saying is that even if you do nothing wrong.
An existing fault might cause the house to burn down or someone to get chocked because you changed the installation.
And then you would be liable...

[momaka]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

What I'm saying is that even if you do nothing wrong.
An existing fault might cause the house to burn down or someone to get chocked because you changed the installation.
And then you would be liable...

Yeah that's true and I thought about that as well.
But the alternative is cheater plugs, which IMO, with a laser printer and two desktops would be asking for trouble as well. Moreover, some of the existing outlets have their plastic very yellowed near the Live hole. Not sure if this was a fault of the previous tenant plugging in something that drew too much juice or just loose contacts from the outlets being too old. But if it's the latter, I'll be changing the outlets.

I'm also contemplating if I should test the breaker before doing any work - that is, with a true short circuit. But that is very dangerous, of course, so I'm thinking no for now.

[Sparkey55]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

worn out contacts in an outlet socket is a sure quick way to start a fire if you pull alot of current through it.

[chozo4]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Maybe it's a dumb idea but... perhaps look into getting an Isolation transformer for the wall outlets and/or connect ground to neutral with a couple of high amperage diodes?

[momaka]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

worn out contacts in an outlet socket is a sure quick way to start a fire if you pull alot of current through it.

Yup. I noticed at least two outlets had it. Will inspect when I get back. If they are bad, I might try to get my landlord with that and tell him that the outlets need changing. Hopefully that might solve my problem (but I doubt it).

I wish I had more time to inspect the house. I literally took over the keys and moved my stuff. Had maybe 1 hour to inpect everything and write my report - it's a standard VA lease: you have 5 days to inspect the place and let the landlord know if anything is wrong or needs fixing.

Maybe it's a dumb idea but... perhaps look into getting an Isolation transformer for the wall outlets

Hmmm.
Now that you mention that, one of my friends who has a repair shop bought a bunch of 500W 120 -> 240 VAC transformers. They are Chinese and a bit cheap (around $40 with shipping if I remember correctly). But that's still an interesting idea to keep in mind. 240 VAC should be fine with my desktops too (just have to remember to turn that 115/230V switch on the back... otherwise ).

[eccerr0r]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Here's a landlord-safe hack if you can't get or make an isolation transformer:

You may be able to get a cheap GFCI plug/circuit off of a newer hair dryer (check thrift shops), and wire that up to a 3 prong extension cord and keep mental note to yourself that there's no real ground - no house changes, still have some protection against electrocution.

I don't know about the duty cycle of the hair dryers, though they can eat a thousand watts, they tend to be only used for a few minutes at a time - but perhaps the cord is much more resilient than the heating elements.

[SteveNielsen]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

He could rig up one of the GFI outlets he already has in the same manner.

Run a heavy duty three wire extension cord from the kitchen. Cheap. Legal. Temporary. Just don't print while the fridge, toaster, or microwave are running unless you want to test that breaker.

Slightly off topic - A house I lived in that had good safety grounds at all outlets but had a loose neutral on one of those horrible push-in wire outlets. It reared its ugly head when all the outlets downstream from it went "dead". They were not in fact dead, they were very much alive between hot and ground. When I opened the offending outlet the white wire feeding downstream was loose in the push-in hole and the insulation for a couple of inches on that wire was discolored, hardened and cracking off from the heat damage. I had a new outlet WITH SCREW TERMINALS and repaired it myself. Fuck being legal. Our slumlord would never have gotten around to it.

[momaka]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

You may be able to get a cheap GFCI plug/circuit off of a newer hair dryer (check thrift shops), and wire that up to a 3 prong extension cord and keep mental note to yourself that there's no real ground - no house changes, still have some protection against electrocution.

If I am modifying my own extension cord, I actually don't even need GFCI.
I've touched live wires before (on a concerte basement floor, but with dry, insulated shoes). It's safe to do as long as you don't touch the Neutral or ground yourself. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there is nothing grounded in sight where my computer will be, and I have hardwood floors, which are at least a foot above ground level and nothing between that and the ground.

I don't know about the duty cycle of the hair dryers, though they can eat a thousand watts, they tend to be only used for a few minutes at a time - but perhaps the cord is much more resilient than the heating elements.

They usually use 16 AWG cord, so yes, they can take even a very long duty cycle (the plug on the drier and outlet contacts are the ones that tend to get hot after a while and can't).

Run a heavy duty three wire extension cord from the kitchen. Cheap. Legal. Temporary.

Yeah, that's another good idea, as the kitchen is right next to the living room and very close to where my desk and computers will be. In fact, my desk is positioned in front of the wall that divides the kitchen and the living room. There is no kitchen door either.

Actually, now that I think about it, that's a great idea, because the outlets in the living room, the bedroom, the bathroom, AND all of the house's lights are all on the same 15A breaker. Only the kitchen is separate. (So obviously the wiring in this house must be very old.)

I don't know how cold the house will get in the winter, but if I need to run my portable heater every once in a while in the bathroom, then it probably would be a good idea to plug my computer equipment to a kitchen outlet to divide up the load between the breakers a little better. I also have a halogen floor light that is rated for 360W that I have in the living room. I guess some simple math will be in order .

Just don't print while the fridge, toaster, or microwave are running unless you want to test that breaker.

Yeah, I know what happens, from experience .
My friend had a similar problem in his shop. They (either previous owners or incompetent electrician) wired 6 outlets in series, all sharing the same L and N wires, on one breaker. After month of tripping the breaker, my friend finally called me. He had a microwave, a fridge, a dehumidifier, small toaster oven for baking boards, and various other tools. The breaker's plastic had started to become brittle from all of the overloading and tripping, so we changed that first. Next, I opened the outlets and noticed that there were four more black wires that didn't lead to anywhere and were "dead" (no voltage and no connection to ground or Neutral). I went to the breaker panel again, removed the cover, and eventually found those four black wires - they were not connected to anything. I connected two of them to two spare breakers and the other two to Neutral. Next, I labeled them properly (both at the breaker and at the outlet boxes with tape) to show which ones were actually Neutral. Finally, I completed the job by wiring two of the most used outlets on the new breakers I put. Also fixed the ground on some of the outlets, which simply required to tighten some of the crappy screws on the grounded steel conduit through which the wire was running (the steel conduit was externally mounted on the wall, so that made the job easy). My friend no longer had a problem since then.

Slightly off topic - A house I lived in that had good safety grounds at all outlets but had a loose neutral on one of those horrible push-in wire outlets. It reared its ugly head when all the outlets downstream from it went "dead". They were not in fact dead, they were very much alive between hot and ground. When I opened the offending outlet the white wire feeding downstream was loose in the push-in hole and the insulation for a couple of inches on that wire was discolored, hardened and cracking off from the heat damage.

Yeah, I believe those are the dreaded "back-stab" outlets. Pure fire hazard, IMO, so I never trust them and use screw-terminal outlets only. That's how I've been wiring my friend's shop as well.

Beware that some APC units (including Back-ups Pro 650, which is a "higher end" model) also use backstab for their outlets. The small cheap ones are no good either and often use spade terminals, or even worse setups.

[momaka]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Just a small update on this thread...

I ended up changing only one of the outlets so far - that is, the one where my computer is. Been two weeks now, and so far, so good. Went with a standard 3-prong non-GFCI because the GFCI outlets I had were too wide and would not fit inside the outlet box in the wall. Ground was left floating (no tieing to Neutral as was suggested by the majority of people here). The only grounded object (I think) near my computer is the window AC unit. So possibly need to beware of touching those two at the same time. The coaxial cable on the modem is also grounded (I checked outside inside the cable box), but the modem is on the other side of the living room.

As far as the wiring, the house seems to still have the original cloth wiring - that is two wires with rubber insulation packed together in a cloth insulation. On the outlet I was working, the rubber seemed quite degraded and even had a crack in one place on the Live (which I patched up with electrical tape), so I was extra careful not to move the wires too much to prevent further cracking.

I might change the outlets in the bedroom as well - reason being is becuase the ones there right now have quite a bit of heat damage, possibly due to either a bad contact from a cheater plug or bad connection. Leaving them the way they are now for sure will be a fire hazard for the next tennant (and even for me if I am to use them).
Since I don't really have anything in the bedroom that needs a 3-prong outlet, I'll likely replace the outlets with the same 2-prong as the originals.

I also made myself a cheater 2-prong to 3-prong adapter in case I need to plug in a 3-pin plug anywhere else in the house besides the kitchen and living room. Used 18 AWG stranded wire from a lamp and hooked it to a spare GFCI outlet I had (I did tin the ends of the stranded wire, though, so the screw connection is more solid that way).

Last but not least, I should note that the GFCI plugs in the kitchen do actually appear to have a ground. I aven't checked if it's a fake ground, though (i.e. G tied to N). Also, the contacts in those outlets seem a bit messed up as well. Whever I plug in something in the outlets, the plug sits in a weird angle and fits quite loosely inside. (Makes me wonder what the previous tenants did with the plugs).