Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

[tiresias]

This may seem like something of a moot point in countries such as the (in my experience) UK, Italy (USA too?) in which regulations dictate that every mains socket in a household should be equipped with an earth wire...

Here in Holland, however, one very routinely finds that a majority of sockets in one's house lack an earth wire leading to them. As far as a computer/workstation is concerned - what could be the possible downsides of using a socket devoid of a functional earth?

A few come to mind, which I've already accounted for:

1. The possible safety issue that arises when one touches an ungrounded metal chassis in which a PSU running off 230Vac is installed.

2. Some surge protectors have their MOVs placed between phase and earth. Obviously any such MOVs are useless when using an ungrounded outlet. It is hence not a coincidence that most surge protectors I've seen commonly sold in the EU tend to have the bulk of their MOVs between phase and neutral.

Are there any other issues, particularly as far as the safety of one's hardware is concerned, that one should be aware of?

[arneson]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

Remember when that little screw lug stuck out of the two to three adapters.

I used to screw this into the center plate and it usually gave me earth ground thru metal conduit.
Is this not true there?

[gonzo0815]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

This is not very uncommon in older building in Germay. The biggest minus is that you can`t use an GFI (or how the usuall ground current interupter is named) IMHO, wich is in my opinion the absolut best pice of safety anyone could immagine regarding high voltage.
But on the other side, you avoid sutch anoying prolbems like humm loops or those anoing voltages on lan cables etc.
But of course, if the hot wire in an metal case is defektive, the whole case is on live without protection.

@arneson, i belive not, unless this metall lid is conected at the ground or neutral........which it normaly is...

[arneson]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

It was . The intention was to have the conduit system as an earth ground.

[tiresias]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

Remember when that little screw lug stuck out of the two to three adapters.

I used to screw this into the center plate and it usually gave me earth ground thru metal conduit.
Is this not true there?

You mean whether the wall socket's "backplate", as it were, is itself grounded? Well, the metal plate of the socket is where the attachment of the earth wire is, if you get my drift, so had there been such a wire to connect, then indeed the plate itself would be grounded.

Unfortunately, all that we have leading to (virtually) all our wall sockets here is phase and neutral wires in a plastic conduit.

The radiators are earthed, so there's always room for a clamp-to-radiator ghetto job should the need arise - but I'd rather avoid that if possible for now because it's just so... well, ghetto.

[Galvanized]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

Googling ungrounded PC or ungrounded PC problems brought up enough that I'd ghetto it to the earthed radiator. Radiators, in cars too, should all be grounded to keep electrolysis at bay (many car radiators are rubber mounted and must have a ground strap). My conduit is galvanized thin wall pipe but as an added measure, a long steel rod (8ft.) was driven into the ground and wired to the steel circuit breaker box.

I found several outlets here with the wires reversed. One of those LED testers was used. I bet a water cooling PC would benifit from having it's radiator grounded :P

[Tom41]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

Here in the UK, as you've already said, it's a legal requirement that EVERY mains socket has an earth wire connected. In fact, nearly all sockets contain a spring-loaded mechanism that physically prevents you putting a plug in unless the earth pin is present.

However, many devices I've taken the plugs off don't seem to have the earth wire connected. In fact, many of these plugs have a 'dummy' plastic earth pin to fool the mechanism and allow you to plug it in. I've seen all sorts of devices like this, including TVs, stereo systems, cellphone chargers and desk fans.
I wonder why these devices don't have any earth connection? It may have something to do with the devices being 'double insulated', often indicated by a double box icon on the back of the device.

PCs and monitors though almost always require an earth connection, hence the 3-pin plug used for connecting to the PSU. Many devices that do require earthing often have a big warning on the back "THIS DEVICE MUST BE EARTHED".

The concept of earth is simple; it's a safety aspect. Imagine if one of the power wires inside a device came loose, and touched a metal part. The device may or may not work, but touching that metal would be just like touching an uninsulated live wire.
Therefore, all metal parts that aren't part of the circuit must be earthed. If this happened, then the electricity would flow down the earth wire creating a power surge. The surge would trip the RCD or blow the fuse, making it safe.

[tiresias]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

Googling ungrounded PC or ungrounded PC problems brought up enough that I'd ghetto it to the earthed radiator.

Well, apart from the obvious issue of "if it's ungrounded, it won't go *bang* if the case goes live" , which I had already dealt with in my opening post, the only references I've been able to find in Google were very vague (and unsubstantiated) mentions of how, I quote:

When every card inside PC and the peripherals are floating at 110V AC potential that can easily cause them to pick interference.

I don't have the expertise to evaluate whether this is correct or not - does anyone know why this should (or should not) be the case?

[arneson]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

There are some things I wish were not grounded at the outlet.
I am in the US but my laptop came with a power pack That has three prong at power source and three prong into computer, it failed, I blame the grounding.
Just recieved two new ones yesterday, they are the same part, identical, from same company, no ground on AC plug, work perfectly,
Also wish sat recievers were two prong because of the ground loop potential.

[tiresias]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

There are some things I wish were not grounded at the outlet.
I am in the US but my laptop came with a power pack That has three prong at power source and three prong into computer, it failed, I blame the grounding.

Interesting - I assume the power pack has, like most I've seen, a plastic casing with no exposed conductive parts; do you know what the ground wire was actually connected to? Just the negative pole of the DC output, as is the case with (grounded-socket-using) desktop PSUs?

[arneson]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

I can answer this only because I dremel cut into this power brick.
The ground pin from the AC source is carried on to the laptop with a dedicated pin, the outermost.
Why, I'm not sure but I'll say that this computer would not recognize it's power source until you connected a remote monitor with the DB 15 providing a second source of AC ground. At that point I was nuts,
I'll leave it at that..

[Galvanized]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

I spent an hour reading Google hits, then I asked a trusted friend. As long as a cold water pipe or the piping off the radiator inlet goes into the earth, there will not be a danger to anyone bathing.

The main reason for grounding the comp is to bleed off static charges from the drives or from a charged user touching the case.

Now arneson can tell us how a yatch deals with earthing equipment :-)

[arneson]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

As long as they'r Floating, it's OK. Going aground sucks..

[Fatal0E]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

I grew up in a house that had no grounded outlets, never really thought much of it. I didnt really no much about electricity, but my dad always just took out his pliers and popped the ground pin off the plugs. Never seemed to cause any problems, its just standard practice, buy a new fridge, the delivery guys say they cant hook it up, he walks over and breaks the plug.

[tiresias]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

I grew up in a house that had no grounded outlets, never really thought much of it. I didnt really no much about electricity, but my dad always just took out his pliers and popped the ground pin off the plugs. Never seemed to cause any problems, its just standard practice, buy a new fridge, the delivery guys say they cant hook it up, he walks over and breaks the plug.

I see... so your sockets don't actually have a hole for the earth pin, I take it? Thereby making it impossible to insert a three pinned plug unless one pin is removed?

[jonnyGURU]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

I see... so your sockets don't actually have a hole for the earth pin, I take it? Thereby making it impossible to insert a three pinned plug unless one pin is removed?

Same is true in most of Taiwan. Both my hotel room and the Ultra office had two prong outlets w/ no Earth ground. I found several power cords laying about that had the ground pins snapped off of them.

I even made the joke, "are there no ground pins because the island of Taiwan is floating in the Pacific?"

[Per Hansson]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

IMO having a floating ground is not a good thing, since the computers use ground so much, i.e. you will have a constant buildup of current in the parts that should be grounded...

I have a friend here in Sweden who's PC is ungrounded, whenever I touch it I get a big fricking zap from it, sometimes I have even seen the blue flash from my finger to the chassi, I don't remember how much it is but I know that static electricity below 5000v is not even felt... I think it is 20000v that gives the blue zap thing...

To say the least I did the mockup fix of just connecting the darn thing with a cable to the house heating elements... I've got another friend that also (without the advice of me) has exactly the same setup...

[arneson]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

Any device that comes with a manual has that "Safety" section.
It shows the spilt coffee, rain, sun, kids, and a house picture with a big spike in the ground, maybe even a lightning bolt.

[gs3]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

I see some misinformation in this thread.

GFCIs work just as well whether the circuit is grounded or not. A GFCI measures any difference between the two supply wires and the ground wire is not involved. In fact, I would say a GFCI is more important and useful when you do not have the protection of a grounded appliance.

Yes, you can live with ungrounded devices and survive. Many people did. But many lives could have been saved by grounding appliances and that is why today the grounding is required.

If the user can be exposed to touch any metal part which could be under voltage if a fault occurs, then that metal part should be grounded. Cutting off the ground pin is just stupid. Putting a baby in the front seat and driving drunk on a narrow, winding, road by a cliff is a stupid thing to do even if most babies survive the experience and were never even aware of the danger.

Certain appliances do not need to be grounded because they do not have this condition. A printer which is all plastic and, in any case, is supplied from an adapter which totally isolates it from the mains does not need to be grounded... if there was anything which could be connected to ground.

The reason many appliances have outside adapters instead of internal is precisely that it simplifies the design as the appliance is isolated from the mains and it does not need to meet such stringent requirements.

[arneson]

Re: Basic question regarding use of ungrounded sockets

I just counted the power bricks plugged in here.
There are 52 scattered all over the house, may have even missed some in the attic.
They may simplify the device by eliminating the supply components but,
they are always on, they are more than warm, and my UPS's don't like the big ones.
Things get crazy here when the power goes Brown or does the quick up down thing.