USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

[Fizzycapola]

What the hell is with USB. I still find PS2 ports to be the best choice for keyboard
and mice.

In DOS, if I try to use an official USB mouse, it can do really strange, as though
I'm continually hitting enter, it'll also randomly select menu options. It does all this
without me even touching the mouse.

On my laptop if I enable USB 2.0 mode. Windows is less stable. Sometimes it'll
just BSOD randomly. When I switch BIOS option to USB 1 it's much more stable.

When I use extended front USB ports, occasionally they'll BSOD the system, not
work, randomly disconnect, momentarily stop working. Most recently they wiped
my memory stick (it wasn't even a cheap one - I think it was 100% 5 star rated on
Amazon).

Sometimes I can hear strange operating noises through sensitive headphones when some USB devices are
attached. Particularly gamepads. My Nyko fan cooled gamepad would make a lot
of noise through headphones with it's fan enabled, I followed some past advice
from badcaps members ( of atleast as I interpreted it - If I've got it wrong pls let
me know) and parallel a small Oscon to the fan, now the fan seems to spin up and
down much smoother and the noise appears to be completely gone consequently
there's no noise now. Perhaps I should parallel all my devices with these
smoothers?.

My friend since using a really cheap (weighs about half a real ps2 pad and the
buttons are soft and unresponsive) ebay ps2 imitation gamepad in the front of his
new computer has also had a range of similar issues. I looked through the
transparent case of the pad and appears not to contain any capacitors at all.

[zandrax]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

Do you connect your USB devices to case plugs or motherboard ones?
In the former case I'd try the motherboard ones, those soldered near PS/2 plugs: oxide, lack of screening and small cables section for USB case cables are common in cheap towers (sometimes even in premium ones) and can lead to wrong/partial detections. Connections more stable in USB 1.1 mode are often another related symptom.
In the latter I'd try connecting a powered hub: this should reduce noise and avoid most power related issues. Lastly check caps on motherboard near USB ports: there is a very small chance they're broken (reduced capacity, high ESR).

Zandrax

[jpdoe]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

Sorry... What does "lack of screening mean"?

I've also had mixed experiences when it comes to frontal usb connectors.

But the most annoying thing related to them is the fact that there's a lot of PCs down here assembled by someone that would't risk blowing the chipset by connecting the usb headers the wrong way, and decided to simply leave them disconnected.

Another common practice is to cut the ground wire. Not the ones used by the usb connectors themselves (they would be non operational that way) the one present in some headers: the one connected to the header shielding. It would seem there's some motherboards where the ninth pin of the header is not connected to ground, but to a positive voltage. And to work more efficiently (avoid reading the motherboard docs), these techies just cut them.

I think that cable would be most needed when using usb devices that need shielding (wifi adapters, for example) but I don't know for sure.

What do you think?

[arneson]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

Screening in this context means grounded shielding.
I had an old NEC computer that had screen grounding everywhere along with strapping of grounds to every part.
Put your computer near your television tuner on channel 2 and you'll see what a lack of screening can do.

[i4004]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

i would say usb problems are down to crappy usb devices and/or crappy usb support on mobo.
which means you're not buying quality stuff(are you the one that said you're buying the cheapest hammer in the store...<smirk> )

i dunno how can it work in dos at all(?)
who made dos drivers for usb?

laptop bsodding in usb2.0 mode?
what a fine machine!
i use usb2 on my laptop to transfer video to and from usb external hdd and never had a problem.

essentially i never had a problem with anything usb anywhere...good system if you ask me.
i don't even have ps2 mouse port.
have usb mouse and tablet connected.

interesting set of problems in argentina; so what does he do when people ask how come front usb connectors don't work?
he says he can't read?

[PCBONEZ]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

DOS USB drivers have been around for a while now.

http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquir...rivers-for-dos

http://www.bootdisk.com/usb.htm

[Fizzycapola]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

The issue mainly is apparent with cheap gamepads. USB hard drives work at their sluggish 7 - 10MBs speed ok without crashing, my lelon-less Microsoft mice and keyboards work ok in Windows without adaptors and most DOS programs.

The reason cheap gamepads are used isn't price driven. It's layout driven, good brands don't manufacture viable pads at present. The more expensive models aren't appropriate unless I want to have my gaming performance considerly reduced, for example if you look on google, you will see many have a rounded D-button. This sort of button offers considerly less gaming reaction time capability than a solid cross or dissected D button, playing against someone who uses the rounded button theres no question of wiping them out 100% of the time in a 2 player head off.

[jpdoe]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

@arneson: Thanks for the clarification. I always think about EMI as something bad for the PC stability. I forgot about what the EMI radiated from the PC can do to other devices.

@i4004: You make a good point. I didn't consider the fact that these techies may have trouble reading the motherboard manuals. A good part of the PC market down here is handled by custom made PC shops. If you find a malfunction on your brand new PC, you head back to the shop for them to fix it free of charge. They usually have a couple of techies on the payroll who assemble and service the PCs they sell. It would seem they train them for speed instead of quality. I've seen some of them work, and they assemble the PCs in no time, but I'd rather buy the parts and let others deal with their sloppy job. But their clients are accostumed to that. Considering the other options are going to a supermarket (zero hand holding) or to a general electronics shop (almost no technical expertise and higher prices) they prefer the flexibility the custom made PC provides. Oh... they also forget to include the "microsoft tax" in the price.

@fizzicapola: I've never opened a usb gamepad. But it would be interesting to study the way they deal with the power consumption. Maybe the usb bridge is low quality, or it needs additional elements to limit the power consumed.

[Fizzycapola]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

@arneson: Thanks for the clarification. I always think about EMI as something bad for the PC stability.

I agree. According to my Intel for OEM manufacturers manual. I think I read it's bad. Not
that most people would know it at user level unless it was serious enough to cause a
software error. Presumeably a higher quality board will deal better with bad USB
devices better. On affordable or 'task selected' but unfortunately low quality boards
though, perhaps this could be got around with a home made pass through port saver,
somewhat similar the some port savers in serial parallel port days.

Anyway heres what I did to stop the fan transmitting noises I could hear through my
sensitive headphones with sound levels maxed...



Don't worry about the ammount of solder used there. It's a big hill of it, so the top reaches
the legs, otherwise the legs would be too close to the wrong pads. I opted for the hill as the safest possible option to my knowledge. Don't worry about the top of the cap either it's just camera playing tricks, it's not going to short circuit and blow up my laptop by touching the solder blobs near it, it's atleast 1mm between them.

Also added full range and long length RFI ferrites to either end and twisted the fan power wire.

[Fizzycapola]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

you're not buying quality stuff(are you the one that said you're buying the cheapest hammer in the store...

No thats not me, it's this hammer serial killer I know who sometimes posts as me, here he is...

[zandrax]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

@ jpdoe: like arneson wrote, screening means shielding. Cheap cases use unshielded cables or "selfpromoted tecnicians" [euphemism for those barely capable of putting a motherboard into a case] don't connect the shield to the ground pin.

@ fizzy: I read only now you've troubles with a laptop: forget the unshielded cable thing.
Did you try connecting the devices to a powered hub?

Zandrax

[i4004]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

yeah, i'm the one buying cheapest baterry powered drill in cheapest store..hehe
and i'm perfectly satisfied with it!

and not playing games, but still....laptop that would work only in usb1 mode wouldn't be with me for long if it couldn't be fiexd...

[jpdoe]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

@zandrax: Thanks for the clarification.

There's one valid reason I can think of for not connecting the shielding to the ground pin. But this kind of thing is not really my strong suit, so I would really like some input.
I remember reading you should not connect the shielding to ground on both ends of some cables, since both equipments being connected could have a different chassis electric potential. That would cause an electric current on the shielding, and that was not good.
IIRC this applied to cables of a lenght such that the devices being connected could be on a different ground potential.
But it's all really fuzzy. I can't remember if it applies to parallell printer cables too.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

What you are talking about is called 'floating grounds' [ground is not at earth ground].
That should not happen in a PC unless there is already a fault.

[i4004]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

no, he described ground loop.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

Yes,
If you have a floating ground then you can create a ground loop.
If you don't have a floating ground then you can't.

.

[jpdoe]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

Thanks pcbonez and i4004. I'll research those topics.

[i4004]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

>If you don't have a floating ground then you can't.


you don't need floating ground to have g.loop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_ground

he specifically described ground loop, as he was describing grounding at two different places producing noise.

he didn't describe one spot without ground(floating ground) and another with ground producing noise.

yes, you can have such g.loop too, but that's not what he described.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

No i4004, what he said was:

>>>
... you should not connect the shielding to ground on both ends of some cables, since both equipments being connected could have a different chassis electric potential. That would cause an electric current on the shielding, and that was not good.
<<<

This->>>>
"since both equipments being connected could have a different chassis electric potential."
->>> Is a floating ground in at least one chassis.

.

[i4004]

Re: USB woes: crashing, noise, bsod, wiping devices, destabilising, causing random input.

according to you, what does this
"you should not connect the shielding to ground on both ends of some cables"
mean?

that one end is not grounded?