The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

[trodas]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

Well, Chris1992, it get beyond just that. I also have it worked for the 8 months with bridged Vcore caps with 100nF SMD ceramics, witch cause unusualy high overheating and overstressing on the caps. Usualy even with 6 Vcore 2200uF Panny FM machines is doing such thing resulting in immediate unstable operation. But the Samxons hold even with THAT situation. They must be pretty good, if you ask me.

Anyway, about the sis JetWay V266B once again - I would like to say something that partly not belong in this thread and partly it does - altrought the stability of her machine is 100% (never crash or fail once (!) ) and no Prime stress testing could show any weakness, it do frequently not correctly DMS power off the monitor after the set 10 min of inactivity and 4 or 5 times it failed to power up when I provide from external switcher the main voltage to the PSU.
While these problems for nearly now 9 months of usage with folding all the time (recapped around 3. 20. 2006) aren't serious, I was still convinced that I could get rid of them by replacing the small 10 and 22uF caps, witch I did not before, as I don't have any suitable caps around 22uF to do the job...

But I wanted to exchange them, so about week ago, when I got 22uF 35V RS Samxons from Big Pope, I did it. The immediate impulse was, the the mobo for the last time failed to power on, and for this time, reset not fixed that. So obviously as I suspected, having a old caps with GSC letters on sides are't good, even they are small...

I recapped the remaining 16 pcs of mixed 10 and 22uF ones with these Samxons RS 22uF 35V caps.

Results.
After 30x power on's for test it yet failed to show any failure. I will post ASAP in the JetWay V266B thread to notify when the mobo stop post after providing the power (bios settings say kick on on power on) just once more
After over 50x testing it once again failed to fail to DPMS power off the monitor, as it did before. Excelent

Conclusion.
Recapping even the smallest electrolyte caps from inferior brands aren't voluntary but matadory. Especially on oldie boards, such as V266B or these KT7-R Topcat want to use for the cap's test.

Conclusion regarding this test.
If the small caps on these test KT7-R boards will not be exchanged to any reliable brand (Samxon, Rubycons, Panasonics...), the test will be simply invalid. It is not only my experience, but others as well, that indicating the necessarity of exchanging even small caps.

I will be just repeating myself there, however, since I already mention it strongly that state and progression of dying could be for the small caps different on each board, therefore replacement is matadory.

[Topcat]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

Conclusion regarding this test.
If the small caps on these test KT7-R boards will not be exchanged to any reliable brand (Samxon, Rubycons, Panasonics...), the test will be simply invalid. It is not only my experience, but others as well, that indicating the necessarity of exchanging even small caps.

I will be just repeating myself there, however, since I already mention it strongly that state and progression of dying could be for the small caps different on each board, therefore replacement is matadory.

That is absolutely NOT true. Invalid in your eyes, who cares. Replacing those little caps will have NO AFFECT on the ESR ratings of the caps being tested over any period of time, which is what the experiment is. Stop posting false BS such as this.

[gonzo0815]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

I agree to TC; those little caps may have seriouse efekts on some funktion, but they have absolutely no relation to the main VRM input or output caps in any way. Those test rigs will be powered on and may be off when a test is sheduled. If the DPMS signal is distorted or if TC will have to push the button twice, this will not alter the criticall things: heat, load & ripple of main VRM unit, wich this test is intended for.
For reworked boards for low power, daily ussage, i certainely agree, that changing those caps is a smart idear, if near perfection is only a mather of personal spare time or if the customer want to charge for it.

[gg1978]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

That is absolutely NOT true. Invalid in your eyes, who cares. Replacing those little caps will have NO AFFECT on the ESR ratings of the caps being tested over any period of time, which is what the experiment is. Stop posting false BS such as this.

Quoted for truth..

I've got a freebie KG7 that i honestly can't believe POST's, let alone boots to the UBCD.. I haven't run Prime95 on it or anything, as i figure it'll kill the CPU with no output side capacitance.

I think it got recapped before, as all the Vcore
output side caps are Nichicon HM(M)'s which are all blown..

I think the board was run seriously overheated for some time, as the Nichicon HD's on the VRM input side are blown to shit tooo.. The board has acquired a nice darker brown around the CPU VRM area too.. Very unusual there, as Nichicon HD"s aren't known for being particularly failure prone..

[stretch0069]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

cmon get that shit folding
its so uphill from now on

yeah TC.......Mustang be a knockin' at yo back door.

speaking of which, that was damned nice Mustang.


lets get it on.

[yanz]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

While i do agree with topcat that the function of cpu vrm wont be affected by those very small caps in others area of mobo, what trodas has said have a point.

Those small caps can be a troublemaker, sometimes. This is happen on more than 5 mobos i have repaired with weird symptoms like fail to restart, power up, wake from standby, lousy cmos setiing, etc. Recapping those small caps fixed it all. Those boards have no instability whatsoever when running 100% cpu load before and after recapping those small caps.


Of course, recapping those small caps wont fix what is not broken. If the board is already functioning 100% perfect, then recapping those small caps is not necesarry or only can be considered as preemptive maintenance.

For us, that do not professionaly do recapping as our daily or weekly work, we can pour as many times as we like on a single project/board. On contrary, a pro wil spend his time wisely and if it's aint broken why fix it.

I have the same KT7 board. IIRC it has 5-7 100uf Teapo caps. They are not too many. This is a legitimate testing anyway. I would say why not to recapping those small cans. This test will be looked by many people all over the world. The chance of those small caps giving troubles maybe only 5% or less, but what the heck.. This is an unordinary occasion anyway.


IMO, recapping or not those small caps, it's up to Topcat. I would still seeing this test legitimate anyway. But what trodas said is not BS. It has happened and it's not 100% impossible. On trodas case it makes differences, on this testing maybe it wont. It just a misunderstanding of what trodas said, he never mention that those small caps can chaostically ruin the vrm anyway.

edit:

ah, about those small caps, it's better discussed in here: https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2956


@stretch, yeah, lets fold it on!

[Topcat]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

Yanz, There is some truth to that I am sure, I'm not denying it. In the 5 years I've been servicing boards, I've had maybe a dozen that were so bad they needed the smaller caps replaced. They were always because of either onboard sound issues or USB issues, and seemingly always on MSI or ECS boards that utilized 220uF Teyah caps for whatever reason. On a personal yet professional note: Of the probably many hundreds of boards I've recapped, I've never had a customer contact me and report strange behavior which was caused by those smaller caps. If they're the slightest bit questionable, I actually do replace them, which is very rare. However, Trodas's claim that the experiment is invalid since these little caps aren't replaced IS complete BS. As I stated before, if it's invalid in his eyes, so be it. The ESR results of the highly stressed VRM filters are the objective here, which the little caps will not affect.

Just a little update:
I have taken the initial ESR readings, assembled the boxes, and ran them all through some burn-in regiments. I now need to do the XP installs and get them folding. It's SOO close right now! I know it seems I'm taking my sweet time, but I do have a life and a family. I'm getting this going as quickly as I can!! I now have to install the OS's on FOUR machines, so there's another full days work getting them installed, configured, and running....

[willawake]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

i see this test as being a way to validate a future choice of caps for the recapping of a board. it is certainly not a lab science experiment. therefore it is being done as i see in real world but fair conditions which is what we want.

we could debate about similar items forever but regarding the small caps i think it is unlikely that the average user will replace those caps so even by replacing those caps we are invalidating the experiment in the eyes of the average user who wants to see how the caps work for recapping on A motherboard not the perfect motherboard in lab conditions.

in the end though i think that TC would like to see the real results of the experiment for his own purposes also. so cut the man some slack. you think he would be spend all this time for a bullshit experiment?

[-HoNY-]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

tc -> why you don't change small craps (10/22/47uF etc.)? Bad/used caps on board are diferent characteristic then new and have higher ESR value then new. As well as generate noise - it important use quality cap near clockgen. I recommend to use cheap ZLH rubycon (in EU on www.distrelec.com ) or FM/FC panasonic (for US avalible on www.digi-key.com )

excuse me my bad english

[kc8adu]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

AGAIN!
the small lytics have no effect on the purpose of this shootout!
they will not help nor harm the vrm ip/op lytics that are the subject of the test.
if the boards fold without error WE DONT CARE!

[yanz]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

The ESR results of the highly stressed VRM filters are the objective here, which the little caps will not affect.

So that's the key for this test. Hope we can say enough for this "small caps" debacle. As we all agree that small caps arent goint to give any effect for cpu vrm (don't you, trodas? ).

[SonicSteve]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

Hey,
I just found this thread and regardless I would still like to know the results of the experiment. Yes a perfect and well thought through test is good, but how is the experiment going?
Has it been started? Any results yet.
I scanned through the posts quickly and didn't find any.

[Topcat]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

The showdown officially begins!

All systems have had initial ESR readings taken, assembled, OS's installed, and are currently running. The first month, I figured I'll have them run 'The Troubleshooter v7.02' burn-in cycles, mainly to insure no immediate instabilities arise. I'll then take reading from them again. After that, they'll be folding away.

Again, I wanted to thank all contributors, you all were a great help to this project!!

I will start another thread which will be the official results thread, after the next round of readings are taken.

All brands of caps in this test registered under 0.10 OHM's ESR (the lowest my ESR meter goes). It'll be interesting to see what brands stay that way, and for how long!!!

May the battle commence!!

[whiz]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

do we have any updates?

[gonzo0815]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

do we have any updates?

[willawake]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon



anyway the first month is just over so we should be getting some results soon

[Topcat]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon



Yes, there are some new result, taken on the 8th. I've been logging everything on paper, I forgot to post it. There were no changes in the ESR readings on any of the brands. I'll have them folding this week if nothing major comes up.

[whiz]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

Yo! do i miss something here?
anyway...

There were no changes in the ESR readings on any of the brands. I'll have them folding this week if nothing major comes up.

Yes, that's understandable...the capacitors only have about 700 working hours! it would be very funny if they started to fail so quicky...

[willawake]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

thats the reason for the

[whiz]

Re: The Great Capacitor Showdown - Rubycon vs Panasonic vs Samxon

thats the reason for the

ok! respect...but my initial question has been based on that...

All systems have had initial ESR readings taken, assembled, OS's installed, and are currently running. The first month, I figured I'll have them run 'The Troubleshooter v7.02' burn-in cycles, mainly to insure no immediate instabilities arise. I'll then take reading from them again. After that, they'll be folding away.