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    Dealer Fraud

    As an aid to troubleshooting LCD televisions, don't overlook any odd issues such as previous tampering by others.

    Recently, I was asked to look at a television for a friend. It is a 37" SHARP probably a 2002 year of production Aquous top of the line model that cost >$3K at the time. It had performed flawlessly until just recently when suddenly it would no longer power on. My friend took it to a Sharp dealer who diagnosed the problem as a faulty power supply that would cost about $350 to repair. My friend told the dealer that he didn't want to spend that much money (the right call for sure) then told the dealer he would just come by to pick up the set. That's when my friend asked me to take a look in view of the fact he had paid so much for this leading edge set and simply wanted another opinion. Remember, this set had never had any issues and was never worked on by anyone. I discovered the no start problem and also discovered a problem my friend did not state. There was no sound either.

    Focusing now on the no sound issue I discovered the output TA2024 36 pin chip was missing from the AV board. The set had definitely been sabotaged by the dealer who either removed the chip or more likely, simply swapped the entire AV board with one that a missing audio output stage.

    I originally made the assumption that the set contained no missing parts-- something you don't want to overlook.

    As for the dealer who did this, we plan to give him the opportunity to make right by replacing the AV board since it doesn't appear that the IC removal was a field removal--it's just too neat, like there was never a chip installed, which is simply impossible. Otherwise, if the dealer pushes back we plan to file a complaint with Sharp and seek recovery through them or in small claims
    Court.

    We feel that the dealer likely assumed the customer may have decided to simply not repair the set but that gave them no right to remove parts for their benefit.

    Anyone else have a similar situation?

    #2
    Re: Dealer Fraud

    Umm, I don't want to disappoint you, but it is very common for manufacturers to put less components on a board than there are spaces for them. It is known as "do not place" or "not placed". Perhaps Sharp used a different audio amplifier on this version; perhaps the speakers didn't need that particular amplifier, but another one? Perhaps they even used an OEM amplifier board (I've seen it before on some TVs.) This is more common on higher end products because board space isn't so crucial so they can afford to use different solutions.

    I wouldn't bother with it - there is no way to prove if the board has been tampered with anyway unless the board has some kind of serial number on it which is matched to the TV (unlikely.) More than likely, if they wanted to tamper with the set, the dealer could simply unplug one of the connectors, remove a fuse or remove a board entirely if they wanted to hold you to ransom.

    I agree however $350 is ridiculous for TV repair - why not do it yourself? Download the service manual, follow the troubleshooting diagrams, and post here if you have problems.
    Last edited by tom66; 04-17-2012, 04:42 PM.
    Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
    For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Dealer Fraud

      Well its confusing how he describes what happened, it sounds more to me like he got the TV working already (fixed the no power issue), but then realized it doesnt have any sound output now?'

      But if he just identified the no power problem and hasnt fixed it yet cause he also found this missing IC, then yeah hes probably just paranoid, and the IC is supposed to be missing on that model.

      If the pads on the back of the board where the part is missing are perfectly smooth / same color solder as the rest of the board , then your part probably was not removed. It sounds like this place doesnt even touch component level repairs if they wanted 350 to fix it. So why would they spend 15 minutes desoldering a component (which theyd have no use for since they dont do board level repairs...) Besides if its really a 2002 set, theres nothing in there even worth saving... Why would they have a perfect looking board missing the audio IC lieing around their shop that they then decide to stick into your set... once again it doesnt make sense to randomly have extra broken boards around, or to unsolder 36! pin components to sabatauge peoples tvs

      Anyways tell us if you truely have run the tv with the missing part and confirmed it no longer has sound output. or are you just trying to make sure you have all the parts before you go to the trouble to fix the power supply.
      Last edited by cashkennedy; 04-17-2012, 04:47 PM.
      Fixed so far 12 lcd's , 1 plasmas, 5 monitors, 0 dlp's (plan to keep the dlps at 0). and 3 atx power supplies, and 2 motherboards.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Dealer Fraud

        Maybe it is just a monitor. Some of these old "TVs" did not have spakers build into them. This one has speakers? What the specs of the TV states?

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Dealer Fraud

          Folks, first of all thanks for the input, really, I appreciate but I fixed the original problem of the TV being dead. The sound problem was only found after the set began working, less sound. I have the service manual and have confirmed that the IC is indeed required for the set to have ever worked properly. On that there is no doubt.

          There is indeed a market for working boards, and they are bought and sold daily. The AV Board in this set was 100% complete and working. I am fully aware that not every component outlined on the board is not always used---this NOT THE CASE.

          I suspect the entire board was swapped rather than the IC being removed for use in another similar model or for sale. I am also pretty sure the board was swapped because the shop believed the set was going to be junked. This is clearly fraud, there is no doubt about this. I have worked on TV's and VCR's for years, this was outright theft for the purpose of monetary gain.

          I simply was attempting to share this with the group to suspect each and every possibility when troubleshooting.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Dealer Fraud

            Have you had a look to see if they have a spare parts website or a spare parts eBay account? It would be very interesting if they just happened to have the same board for sale.
            Fixed so far : 1 Home cinema system, 16 LCD Monitors, 4 LCD TV's

            How to resize your pictures guide click HERE
            Retiredcaps Ideal post example click HERE

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Dealer Fraud

              Go in as another customer inquiring about a certain board...

              But also check audio isn't muted in the system menu.
              Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
              For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Dealer Fraud

                You have not given the model number, so i cannot tell you for certain, but there is an audio issue on many sharps of that generation. As others have said here, you are mistaken about the dealer removing an IC. Even if it is shown in the service manual, these sets are routinely updated during production, and the schematics can rarely be trusted to be 100% accurate. It is practically impossible to remove an IC from a board and leave NO evidence, even with proper equipment. If it looks as if the pads have never been soldered, it is because they haven't. Besides, as others have stated, it just would not be a profitable action for a service dept. It would take way too much time (read money) to try to make the board look as if it had not been tampered with.

                Provide the model number, and see if we can help you solve the problem, instead of chasing a wild goose.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Dealer Fraud

                  Randtech and all others,

                  Thanks for the suggestions. The model is an LC-37D5U.
                  Thanks for asking for this an offering to do further investigation into the sound issues with this set. I am aware of a shield beneath the board, next to the main audio chip IC 2502, reported by others to cause a no sound issue. This was not the issue on this set.

                  Consulting the service manual, the above IC output connects directly to the pop suppression relay, which in turn, connects to the speakers. Unless the schematic is horribly wrong, the chip is missing and there can't be any sound without. I've mistakes in manuals, but never the omission of a complete stage. I have determined that the relay is indeed connected to the socket of the missing IC and the exact pin as shown in the schematic. Without the TA-2024 output chip, the set could have never produced sound.

                  I am simply going to appeal to the shop owner that there are no other possibilities and hope he/she will not force me to go to Sharp with a complaint.

                  Thanks again for all input and suggestions.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Dealer Fraud

                    is this main board part number DUNTKC794FE02 by any chance ?
                    fixed so far...376 lg lcd tv's,24 onn tv;s,24 panasonic lcd,16 jvc lcd,12 marshall jcm800 amps,refurb of various disco equipment lighting,old style disco decks ,and a flymo!

                    ----------------------------------------------
                    please let us know if everything works ok if your tv gets fixed, as it will be and aid for anyone else having the same problem and wishing to fix it.it would save people clogging up this site with topics that are duplicated,and can be found easily using the search function.,and taking up valuable space.enjoy your fixed tv!,hopefully!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Dealer Fraud

                      They would do all this for a $3.40 chip?
                      http://www.ebay.com/itm/IC-TRIPATH-H...item3cbbbfe6f3

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Dealer Fraud

                        Originally posted by multimeter View Post
                        is this main board part number DUNTKC794FE02 by any chance ?
                        No, The part number of the AV board is DUNTKC796.

                        Thanks for inquiring.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Dealer Fraud

                          Originally posted by jkb242 View Post
                          No, The part number of the AV board is DUNTKC796.

                          Thanks for inquiring.
                          and can you put up a picture of this board?
                          fixed so far...376 lg lcd tv's,24 onn tv;s,24 panasonic lcd,16 jvc lcd,12 marshall jcm800 amps,refurb of various disco equipment lighting,old style disco decks ,and a flymo!

                          ----------------------------------------------
                          please let us know if everything works ok if your tv gets fixed, as it will be and aid for anyone else having the same problem and wishing to fix it.it would save people clogging up this site with topics that are duplicated,and can be found easily using the search function.,and taking up valuable space.enjoy your fixed tv!,hopefully!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Dealer Fraud

                            To all who responded to this thread:

                            The shop who worked on this set, originally to provide a repair estimate, agreed to order and replace the AV board given the compelling evidence presented. When I presented the schematic showing that without this part the TV could have never produced a sound, along with a visual inspection of the board, confirming the schematic was indeed correct, there was simply no other conclusion that the most likely scenario was that the entire board was swapped with one that had been previously canabilized.

                            So to the nay sayers, there was no denying the physical evidence.

                            Thanks to all who offered comments, hopefully someone in the group will benefit from this example.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Dealer Fraud

                              If the shop did this to you, you should report them to the BBB and also to the Bureau of Electronic and Appliance Repair.

                              http://www.bearhfti.ca.gov/
                              This shop should not be in business. This kind of shop ruins other good repair shops business.
                              Do you have the name of this shop?
                              Never stop learning
                              Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                              Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                              Inverter testing using old CFL:
                              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

                              Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
                              http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                              TV Factory reset codes listing:
                              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Re: Dealer Fraud

                                The BBB is completely useless.
                                "We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

                                -Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Re: Dealer Fraud

                                  Yes, the BBB is completly useless. The strongest action they can take is to write the business in question and ask the business to handle the situation otherwise, or remove their membership if they are a member to this anachronistic scam ... essentially no one considers, or checks BBB before making a shopping decision, so paying a fee to belong is incredibly bad use of money.

                                  Idk about this other group for appliance repair, perhaps they produce a list of unreputable repair places for other shops to use, but i doubt any consumers consult it for recomendations.
                                  Fixed so far 12 lcd's , 1 plasmas, 5 monitors, 0 dlp's (plan to keep the dlps at 0). and 3 atx power supplies, and 2 motherboards.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Re: Dealer Fraud

                                    He should file the complaint with California Bureauof Electronics repair since he is in California:
                                    http://www.dca.ca.gov/online_services/complaints/
                                    He can also find out if this shop has the license for repairing business.
                                    Never stop learning
                                    Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                                    http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                                    Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                                    http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                                    Inverter testing using old CFL:
                                    http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

                                    Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
                                    http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                                    TV Factory reset codes listing:
                                    http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Re: Dealer Fraud

                                      Thanks again everyone for the suggestions. I knew I had caught these guys red-handed but decided to allow them to make it right. While their replacement of the AV board with a new one from Sharp, which in fact they did
                                      (it's definitely a new board) does NOT excuse what they did.

                                      When I confronted them originally, I told them they had one week to get a new board or I would indeed report them to Sharp and take them to small claims court. They couldn't move fast enough! However, I don't want someone else to be injured by these practices either, I feel their recklessness and poor oversight will be their undoing. I agree that the BBB is indeed a waste of time, everyone knows this. I am sill contemplating about reporting them to Sharp, which would impact them the most and possibly protect the unsuspecting public.

                                      I installed the new board yesterday after I picked it up, the set works completely normal.

                                      Thanks again to everyone for assistance along the way!

                                      Comment

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