PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Who = how
Sorry I'm defrosting the fridge between posts..

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Sorry, but this is not correct. They both do. I don't test for PF, but that doesn't mean I can't

The units that can actually fool them are few and far between. I've had only two in three years I think. Usually when the efficiency numbers are off in comparison to the 80 Plus test results, it means I have a test equipment failure to go find.

Had it happen not long ago when the Diablotek "1050W" unit blew out on the primary side. It fried the current measuring shunt resistor inside the Brand. From there on out, everything read light until I replaced the resistor. The KAW was ok... it has a beefier shunt.

That said, these aren't the most accurate meters in creation (5% for the KAW, 2% for the Brand), which is why I'm upgrading soon. The Brand is currently more accurate than ever, but it's still not quite the caliber of test equipment I need. Especially now that I'm using the Tektronix scope.

Nope
4-1850 has an "N/A" under Power Factor.
http://www.energytools.com/PwrMeterSpecs.htm

Kill-A-Watt doesn't measure PF it calculates it which means it assumes standard phase angles and PFC will spoof it.

.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Show me the example of when I did that. I want to see this.

I already did. - Twice I think.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

New PSUs WITH APFC nowadays go up to 90% efficiency.

No.
They -measure- that much because APFC spoofs the watt-meter on the input.
The "A" in APFC = "Active" which means they are constantly changing the phase angles.
- Changing phase angles is beyond the measuring capacity of those basic watt-meters people are using to claim efficiency and draw curves.
- Flat efficiency curves are bull shit.
.

[370forlife]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Alright, believe whatever crackpot theories you want to that an entire industry standard certification is wrong. I'll just believe the right thing.

Oh, and for the last time, APFC does not change the phase angles. It reduces or almost eliminates the harmonics, so voltage looks more like a sinewave. I.E more like a resistive load.

[mur]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

No.
They -measure- that much because APFC spoofs the watt-meter on the input.

Ok. Maybe the real efficiency is 89%, but not as low as you think.

Let's take this example.

you have a power supply outputing (at the output, into the computer) 150W of power. It's 75% efficient, therefore consuming 200W of power, correct? Now lets say it has a PF of .65. This means the 200W that it is actually consuming (active power,) is only 65% of what the power supply is drawing from the wall total. The total apparent power the psu is drawing from the wall is 330W.

So you have a non-PFC psu that is consuming 200W of active power. Apparent power is 330W. PSU is dissipating 50W of heat, while additional 130W of heat is dissipated in mains wires coming to your house and into the PSU.

You say if you add APFC to this PSU apparent power will be converted into active power so not the electric company, but customer pays for it.

That would mean another 130W of heat would be dissipated inside the psu! Whole PSU would be dissipating 180W of heat! Does that sounds realistic to you? That would be hell of noticable if not by power meter, by your hand if you put it in front of exhaust fan grille!

[Oklahoma Wolf]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Nope
4-1850 has an "N/A" under Power Factor.
http://www.energytools.com/PwrMeterSpecs.htm

That's because it has no display for it. It does take it into account. See the actual Brand specs here:



I've had it remain accurate when the KAW wasn't. It's not infallible, but until I start encountering the spoofers every week it's just not something I worry about. Two in three years is not a problem. When I start getting 100% efficiency every week, I'll know something's up.

At any rate, this is not a big enough deal for me to be willing to argue over it. Don't have the time. The IDRC CP-350 should be here by end of month... I doubt I'll find a unit that can fool that one.

[Newbie2]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Oh, and for the last time, APFC does not change the phase angles. It reduces or almost eliminates the harmonics, so voltage looks more like a sinewave. I.E more like a resistive load.

I agree with this gentleman.

[mur]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Thinking of what I said before, what would even be the amount of heat dissipated in kilowatt PSUs! Put one computer that needs a kilowatt PSU in each room in your house and you don't need your central heating anymore! Oh, and make sure every PSU has APFC.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

It reduces or almost eliminates the harmonics, so voltage looks more like a sinewave. I.E more like a resistive load.

Which it accomplishes by putting harmonics into the Phase Angles.
Making the angles dynamic instead of static.
The only way to 'move' a harmonic to clean up a sine wave is to shift it's phase angel.

Watt meters can't parse dynamic phase angles.
It makes them read wrong.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

If you took 1000 or so PSU's all with the same load and connected them all to a diesel generator with a watt-meter on the output...

A UK type watt-meter would read different than a typical US type watt-meter.

If you do the same thing with two set-ups being equal except that one has PFC PSUs and the other has identical PSUs without PFC ...

... The set-up without PFC will use less fuel.

UK watt-meters would read more in the PFC set-up partially because PFC spoofs the meters in the power company's favor [the whole reason the UK made PFC Law] and partly because they waste more energy.

I don't know where that would balance out with US type watt-meters, but regardless, the generator for the PFC set-up will use more fuel.

...

PFC is NOT GREEN.

It exists because UK power companies have UK politicians in their pockets.

All the advertising HYPE about it being green is to convince you it's a benefit to you,, and it isn't..

.

.

[Behemot]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

I must be insane then.
I'm a retired nuc plant operator.
Also been an electric plant operator on a 2 Gigawatt 4160v grid.

Good to know. By the way, I am beginning my study for the same position next school year But still, our electrical grid is terrible (maybe not so much to have 6 hours black-outs every day, but the wind and solar power plants are bringing us to this position). So I still believe not only energetic companies profit from PFC's. I did not ever believe it is so green (damn, to be honest, I fuck on everything green, the more they talk about it the more I act otherwise), but I knew it is good for electrical grid because there is less load to it. That's the purpose if this regulation in the first place.

Which it accomplishes by putting harmonics into the Phase Angles.
Making the angles dynamic instead of static.
The only way to 'move' a harmonic to clean up a sine wave is to shift it's phase angel.

Watt meters can't parse dynamic phase angles.
It makes them read wrong.

So what's your purpose on this? You're trying to convince us wattmeters read wrong, everybody lie us and real efficiency is 60 %? So how is that most 80 Plus PSU's have small heatsinks and 12cm fans spinning up to some 1000 RPM when they have so small efficiency?

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Thinking of what I said before, what would even be the amount of heat dissipated in kilowatt PSUs! Put one computer that needs a kilowatt PSU in each room in your house and you don't need your central heating anymore! Oh, and make sure every PSU has APFC.

Here in AZ [I'm in one of the hot parts] all I do to heat the house in the winter is kick-on a few extra PC's.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Good to know. By the way, I am beginning my study for the same position next school year But still, our electrical grid is terrible (maybe not so much to have 6 hours black-outs every day, but the wind and solar power plants are bringing us to this position). So I still believe not only energetic companies profit from PFC's. I did not ever believe it is so green (damn, to be honest, I fuck on everything green, the more they talk about it the more I act otherwise), but I knew it is good for electrical grid because there is less load to it. That's the purpose if this regulation in the first place.



So what's your purpose on this? You're trying to convince us wattmeters read wrong, everybody lie us and real efficiency is 60 %? So how is that most 80 Plus PSU's have small heatsinks and 12cm fans spinning up to some 1000 RPM when they have so small efficiency?

Can't compare old designs with new. They are too different.

People think efficiency begins and ends at the PSU which is a load of rot. A large reason it's a load of rot is that PFC jerks with the watt-meter they determine PSU efficiency with while reducing the actual efficiency of the complete system - which goes all the way back to the power plant.

It's called "the big picture" [you will soon here that a lot if you are going into power plants]. - - The people flippin' me crap can't get past the little picture. That's pretty normal when the biggest system they work on fits on a desk and it's always the same basic thing.
.

.

[Behemot]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

I see.


I think everybody more educated know that only by measuring you're actually changing the experiment, so of course the PSU has impact on wattmeter and otherwise, together with all components inside case affect PSU and otherwise. But still I think it's still just small change under the known measurement error, so few %. On the other hand you talk as this was error in terms of tens %.

[mur]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

PFC spoofs the meters in the power company's favor

Well, you say that the reason why new PSUs have 90% efficiency in reviews is because APFC spoofs wattmeters. But if it spoofs them that way so they show less power than they really use, power companies are on loss not profit as you said in another post.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Well, you say that the reason why new PSUs have 90% efficiency in reviews is because APFC spoofs wattmeters. But if it spoofs them that way so they show less power than they really use, power companies are on loss not profit as you said in another post.

->UK<- power meters read more.
->UK<- power companies forced PFC into law.

Modern PSU's are more efficient .. but..
They are not more efficient -> due to PFC.
- They are more efficient due to -> OTHER improvements.
A flat efficiency curve IS BOGUS.
- It's flat due to PFC spoofing the meter dynamically.

I've repeated that same thing about 5 times now.
Try reading things in context next time.

.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

I see.


I think everybody more educated know that only by measuring you're actually changing the experiment, so of course the PSU has impact on wattmeter and otherwise, together with all components inside case affect PSU and otherwise. But still I think it's still just small change under the known measurement error, so few %. On the other hand you talk as this was error in terms of tens %.

It was enough for UK power companies to force PFC into Law.
Anyone that says PFC is a benefit to YOU is a liar.
Yet, that's what the ads claim, isn't it...

[Per Hansson]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

I must be insane then.
I'm a retired nuc plant operator.
Also been an electric plant operator on a 2 Gigawatt 4160v grid.

The stuff you see in ads is bull shit.
You see it so many times you believe it.

Guess what.
SATA 3.0 doesn't any faster than SATA 1.5.
[Except for maybe the first 4-5 milliseconds.]
Same thing.
The stuff you see in ads is bull shit.
You see it so many times you believe it.

.

I'm sure you are going to play away this graph I post below by saying something like "The software Anandtech uses is incorrect, SATA 6 is only faster the first few milliseconds because I said so"

A UK type watt-meter would read different than a typical US type watt-meter.
<snip>
UK watt-meters would read more in the PFC set-up partially because PFC spoofs the meters in the power company's favor [the whole reason the UK made PFC Law] and partly because they waste more energy.

Pair the C300 with a 6Gbps controller and it has a clear advantage - you get a 20% increase in sequential read speed from the C300.

Source; http://www.anandtech.com/show/3812/t...realssd-c300/3

[bhvm]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Folks, Come over here to my place....
The electricity board employees themselves admit that meters are set about 30% faster than real value.

After, The rule is simple.. to eradicate the bad.. Punish the good.
Sure, Electricity losses and theft is a major problems here, and government wants to recover the losses by overcharging the genuine payers with 30% extra.

Enjoy your taxes, they're being used to formulate 'These' policies.