PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

as we're slightly off topic here already..

would there be any dangers/drawbacks/etc. if one goes ahead and simply removes the PFC (passive coil or active daughterboard) from a PC PSU?

i'm thinking about removing the active PFC daughterboard from an Antec PSU. seems like an afterthought as it's mounted over the (tiny) primary caps and connects to where the bridge rectifier would be.. (which is now on the PFC daughterboard)

not to mention the "first gen" PFC PSUs with those huge ass transformer-like coils bolted to the case.. (mainly fortrons)

As long as you get the circuit right there should be no problems,,, except I think running without PFC is illegal where you are. [So don't tell anyone.]
.

[370forlife]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

I know exactly what PF is but it relates to an accurate measure of what is input to the PSU. - That's where it ends except that PFC screws up wattmeters and therefor PF's measurement. - Doesn't have squat to do with what happens at the output of the PSU as you seem to think.

Ok, seriously, are you just trying to piss me off? I have never said anything concerning the output side of the psu when we were talking about PF.

Lets say you have a power supply outputing (at the output, into the computer) 150W of power. It's 75% efficient, therefore consuming 200W of power, correct? Now lets say it has a PF of .65. This means the 200W that it is actually consuming (active power,) is only 65% of what the power supply is drawing from the wall total. The total apparent power the psu is drawing from the wall is 330W. Now if you are like 99% of most residences you pay in VA, and you only have to pay for the 200W of active power the psu is consuming. The power company has to pay for and produce the 330W of apparent power the psu is using.

Now, same unit but with APFC.

Output is 150W, using 200W of active power at 75% efficiency. But now the PF is .99. Therefore the apparent power is 202W.

So you pay for the 200W the power supply is consuming. The power company pays for and produces the 202W of apparent power.

I understand you are very proud and never want to admit you are wrong or do any research as to what the other person is saying. Though, you don't seem to understand what I am saying.

[c_hegge]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Oops sorry about the confusion. Was it FK then that had ESR between FC and FM? I always seem to get FJ and FK mixed up.

Yes. Highest to lowest ESR: FC, FK, FM, FJ, FL. Anything up to FM is fime for PSUs. FJ and FL are overkill and can make the ripple worse.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Ok, seriously, are you just trying to piss me off? I have never said anything concerning the output side of the psu when we were talking about PF.

Lets say you have a power supply outputing (at the output, into the computer) 150W of power. It's 75% efficient, therefore consuming 200W of power, correct? Now lets say it has a PF of .65. This means the 200W that it is actually consuming (active power,) is only 65% of what the power supply is drawing from the wall total. The total apparent power the psu is drawing from the wall is 330W. Now if you are like 99% of most residences you pay in VA, and you only have to pay for the 200W of active power the psu is consuming. The power company has to pay for and produce the 330W of apparent power the psu is using.

Now, same unit but with APFC.

Output is 150W, using 200W of active power at 75% efficiency. But now the PF is .99. Therefore the apparent power is 202W.

So you pay for the 200W the power supply is consuming. The power company pays for and produces the 202W of apparent power.

I understand you are very proud and never want to admit you are wrong or do any research as to what the other person is saying. Though, you don't seem to understand what I am saying.

The defect in your argument is this.
Assuming you have two identical PSU's sending exactly 150w to two identical systems.
Their efficiency will be the same.
Then you add PFC to one of them.
The efficiency of the PFC PSU goes to less than the unmodified PSU due to the added heat losses of the PFC parts.

With identical PSU's except one with PFC and one without,,
the one with PFC is less efficient.

THAT is what I said earlier that you disagreed with.
- And what I said was absolutely correct.

What the PF on the input side is DOESN'T MATTER.
What the watt meter on the input side says DOESN'T MATTER.
- The one with PFC is still dissipating more heat which means it's wasting more power.

.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

In other words,, PFC IS NOT "GREEN".

It just makes some power companies more money.

~~~

And in the process PFC jerks with the input wattage numbers in those graphs you are so proud of making their efficiency calculations bogus.
- If the curves weren't bogus they wouldn't be a flat line.

.

[Per Hansson]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

PCBONEZ; PFC is absolutely a "green" thing
Without PFC power companies need to use higher gauge cabling and produce more electricity to offset the losses caused by poor power factor, by for example power supplies without APFC or PFC

Example 2; if you have your own generator you will want APFC, because it will put less of a strain on the generator
The small reduction in the PSU's own efficiency is well worth it to you in this case (In example one it is only the power company that benefits)

Example 3; if you use a UPS you will want APFC, it will put less load on the UPS (Most UPS systems are for this reason clearly rated with the VA rating aswell)

[370forlife]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

The defect in your argument is this.
Assuming you have two identical PSU's sending exactly 150w to two identical systems.
Their efficiency will be the same.
Then you add PFC to one of them.
The efficiency of the PFC PSU goes to less than the unmodified PSU due to the added heat losses of the PFC parts.

With identical PSU's except one with PFC and one without,,
the one with PFC is less efficient

Lets not talk practical here, just theoretical. Lets assume the psu with PFC has lower RDS(on) parts that somehow offset the efficiency lost by the PFC circuit and match the efficiency curve of the non-APFC unit to a T.

And also, PFC does not work by shifting the angle between volts and amps. It reduces or almost eliminates the harmonics, so voltage looks more like a sinewave and less copper can be used for grid wires thanks to much lower Irms. And you can't call a psu crappy by the efficiency, different designs create different efficiency curves.

But anyways, In that situation, you would pay no more for either one if you paid in VA on your electric bill, as the active power of both units is identical. The only one paying more money is the power company, as they have to produce the 330W of apparent power the non-APFC unit is using.

[Behemot]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

With identical PSU's except one with PFC and one without,,
the one with PFC is less efficient.

Nobody tells otherwise, only the difference is way too small to make the shape of efficiency graph totally different as you wanted to say at the begining.

As for active power, if you personally live in UK or one of the US states and really pay for passive power, sorry to say, but inhabitants of both of these states are dumbasses because this is regular theft and you let them to do so. If you don't, it's not your problem, so calm down…

I heard that digital wattmeters which electrical companies here in Czech republic use also count more active power than they should; but maybe it's otherwise - analog wattmeters count less due to momentum of the metal disc. One or another, analog wattmeter is still basic choice here cause it's cheaper so

But PFC is good for everybody as long as you use circuit brakers. Wattmeters should measure the difference between input and output power of your home grid, but circuit brakers only watch input power. If you take more passive power due to passive/no PFC, you have higher current load, need to use bigger main circuit braker and also pay more for it. At least we have to.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

PCBONEZ; PFC is absolutely a "green" thing
Without PFC power companies need to use higher gauge cabling and produce more electricity to offset the losses caused by poor power factor, by for example power supplies without APFC or PFC

Example 2; if you have your own generator you will want APFC, because it will put less of a strain on the generator
The small reduction in the PSU's own efficiency is well worth it to you in this case (In example one it is only the power company that benefits)

Example 3; if you use a UPS you will want APFC, it will put less load on the UPS (Most UPS systems are for this reason clearly rated with the VA rating aswell)

NO - It's not.
It makes meters read such that it gives naive people a warm fuzzy.
It adds a heat loss to the PSU and has no affect on how much power the load uses.
Total power used is MORE.
It doesn't save any energy whatsoever.
.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Lets not talk practical here, just theoretical. Lets assume the psu with PFC has lower RDS(on) parts that somehow offset the efficiency lost by the PFC circuit and match the efficiency curve of the non-APFC unit to a T.

And also, PFC does not work by shifting the angle between volts and amps. It reduces or almost eliminates the harmonics, so voltage looks more like a sinewave and less copper can be used for grid wires thanks to much lower Irms. And you can't call a psu crappy by the efficiency, different designs create different efficiency curves.

But anyways, In that situation, you would pay no more for either one if you paid in VA on your electric bill, as the active power of both units is identical. The only one paying more money is the power company, as they have to produce the 330W of apparent power the non-APFC unit is using.

Energy efficiency doesn't have anything to do with how much your bill is.
More efficient means the gear loses less power through heat loss.
As I just showed you, with PFC, you lose more heat than without.

[370forlife]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor :

The power factor of an AC electric power system is defined as the ratio of the real power flowing to the load to the apparent power,[1][2] and is a dimensionless number between 0 and 1 (frequently expressed as a percentage, e.g. 0.5 pf = 50% pf). Real power is the capacity of the circuit for performing work in a particular time. Apparent power is the product of the current and voltage of the circuit.

Due to energy stored in the load and returned to the source, or due to a non-linear load that distorts the wave shape of the current drawn from the source, the apparent power will be greater than the real power. In an electric power system, a load with low power factor draws more current than a load with a high power factor for the same amount of useful power transferred.

The higher currents increase the energy lost in the distribution system, and require larger wires and other equipment. Because of the costs of larger equipment and wasted energy, electrical utilities will usually charge a higher cost to industrial or commercial customers where there is a low power factor.

...

An "active power factor corrector" (active PFC) is a power electronic system that controls the amount of power drawn by a load in order to obtain a power factor as close as possible to unity. In most applications, the active PFC controls the input current of the load so that the current waveform is proportional to the mains voltage waveform (a sine wave). The purpose of making the power factor as close to unity (1) as possible is to make the load circuitry that is power factor corrected appear purely resistive (apparent power equal to real power).[13] In this case, the voltage and current are in phase and the reactive power consumption is zero. This enables the most efficient delivery of electrical power from the power company to the consumer

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Let e put it this way.
With PFC, you have a larger CARBON FOOTPRINT.

OH BOY!
Aren't these new terms for the same ole shit fun!

[370forlife]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Yes, you do loose a bit more power.

Other parts such as new topologies (like two transistor forward using LLC resonant,) and lower RDS(on) parts greatly outweigh the efficiency loss of the PFC circuit though. PFC may fool a cheap meter like a KAW, but the meter on the side of your house is not fooled.

[bhvm]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Wow folks,
Did I mis some battle?

Thanks a ton for all the workouts you've done for me.

Speaking of the 500w PSU in question,
I've shifted the RAID on another 12v Channel (its listed that It has 2) and PC is working fine since then. No restarts, No hangups.

'Looking' at the wires, It does NOT seem to have physically 2 seperate rails.
So what could it be? Load distribution or something?

I am still awe inspired about the old p3 (yes PENTIUM 3) compaq 300W.

And yes, I have a Multimeter,and Clamp meter.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Here is how the content of your quote relates to PFC 370forlife..

PFC allows the power companies to MOVE the heat losses in their equipment into their consumers equipment.

- Does that save any energy --- NOPE!
- Is that Green --- NOPE!

.

[Newbie2]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

And also, PFC does not work by shifting the angle between volts and amps. It reduces or almost eliminates the harmonics, so voltage looks more like a sinewave and less copper can be used for grid wires thanks to much lower Irms.

I believe this is right, as from what I've heard, the role of PFC is to reduce the harmonic currents generated by the PSU back onto the AC power lines, by making the line current look more like a sinewave. Power companies can't easily make changes to accommodate these harmonic currents, like by adding caps and inductors, thus making it bad for them. Extra harmonics can also cause the wall sockets, wiring, circuit breakers, and distribution transformers to heat up.

The efficiency of a power supply and its PF (power factor) are two different things, I feel they should not be directly compared like they are in this argument. The overall efficiency of a power supply may drop due to having more parts for the PFC, however it is probably small, and the engineer or engineers who designed the power supply would've implemented more efficient parts elsewhere to help offset the efficiency loss caused by the PFC.

[370forlife]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Here is how the content of your quote relates to PFC 370forlife..

PFC allows the power companies to MOVE the heat losses in their equipment into their consumers equipment.

- Does that save any energy --- NOPE!
- Is that Green --- NOPE!

.

I am going to agree with you that the heat is just basically moved. All the heat generated by poor PF is moved into the many psu's that use APFC. PFC circuit aside, other parts of the psu's are much more efficient and put out much less heat than old designs, so efficiency overall increases, decreasing the total amount drawn. That efficiency would only increase if the PFC circuit was removed. But yes, if there are two identical psu's other than one having APFC and one no PFC, the APFC one is less efficient.

Wow folks, Did I mis some battle? Thanks a ton for all the workouts you've done for me. Speaking of the 500w PSU in question, I've shifted the RAID on another 12v Channel (its listed that It has 2) and PC is working fine since then. No restarts, No hangups. 'Looking' at the wires, It does NOT seem to have physically 2 seperate rails. So what could it be? Load distribution or something? I am still awe inspired about the old p3 (yes PENTIUM 3) compaq 300W. And yes, I have a Multimeter,and Clamp meter.

Ha, yeah we can get going at it at times.

Anyway, the psu may or may not have 2 separate rails. Sometimes you will really have to dig through the wires to find the silk screening for the two rails. Though unless this psu has OCP (which it probably dosen't, but who knows) it only has a single rail. To really see if it has OCP, look for some shunts. They may look like this. If it really dosen't have OCP (I really don't think it does) the only explanation I can think of is that where the wires it was plugged into before are soldered onto the pcb have got cold joints or come loose, or maybe the connectors are bad.

[bhvm]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Experts, Looking at the pictures, does my SMPS have active PCF? (it says yes on the box)

I am not that enlightened on the PF mystery (After reading this mini-war, I will be),
But it DOES seem to have some effect when running on Inverters or Solars.
The power conditions here are very poor (6 Hrs black-outs per day) and we need an inverter often.

Will read carefully and reply to ya' all soon. Need to sleep, Exams tomorrow.

[370forlife]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Experts, Looking at the pictures, does my SMPS have active PCF? (it says yes on the box)

I am not that enlightened on the PF mystery (After reading this mini-war, I will be),
But it DOES seem to have some effect when running on Inverters or Solars.
The power conditions here are very poor (6 Hrs black-outs per day) and we need an inverter often.

Will read carefully and reply to ya' all soon. Need to sleep, Exams tomorrow.

No, the review on the website of the similar one had PPFC. If yours has that same giant inductor (at the back of the linked review) then it has PPFC, not APFC.

[Newbie2]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Here is how the content of your quote relates to PFC 370forlife..

PFC allows the power companies to MOVE the heat losses in their equipment into their consumers equipment.

- Does that save any energy --- NOPE!
- Is that Green --- NOPE!

.

Their heat losses from supplying the power for lots of poor PF power supplies generating excessive amounts of extra harmonics would probably be much greater than a few small parts in a small computer switching power supply.