150d bench power supply ammeter not working

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  • Dannyx
    CertifiedAxhole
    • Aug 2016
    • 3912
    • Romania

    #1

    150d bench power supply ammeter not working

    Good day folks. I've had this cheap and nasty adjustable power supply in the shop for about a year now. It's called "Bakku" (obviously a take on Hakko), though it's not the least bit important, because I've seen this exact same product under many different names and appearances.
    Anyway...the thing's been dead for almost a full year now and I actually wrote a post back then too discussing what happened, and it's been sat on a shelf somewhere until recently when my buddy decided to dust it off and resurrect it.

    The original cause of failure was the transformer became overloaded and went into meltdown. Not wanting to invest too much money in finding a replacement, I abandoned it and got myself one of those ebay modules which does a better job, but my buddy's been hooked on this old one ever since and wouldn't let it go for some reason and he managed to find what he thought is a suitable transformer. The original was pretty strange and hard to source: it had, if I remember correctly, a 10v winding and a 20v winding. The 20v one was used for the output and the 10v one was used to power the meters at the front.

    Now the transformer he got isn't quite a perfect match: it's a center-tapped transformer with two 11v windings, instead of two separate ones, so to work around that, I suggested connecting the outer "ends" to the rectifier to give us the 20v we needed for the output and then power the instruments with the center tap at 11v, as per the schematic attached (ok, the actual values are higher than that, but let's assume it's ideal). It works, the voltage adjusts up and down and it's within spec, but there's one problem: the ammeter doesn't read correctly. It's way off, by like half an amp, so if I load the output with 1a, the meter only reads like 0.34A !

    The only thing I can think of is some sort of isolation problem between the meter and the output, since nothing else was changed otherwise. I did hook up a cooling fan though: it's in parallel with the instruments, so it's powered by the center tap as well (11v)....don't think that has any effect though. Managed to find the schematic as well, or at least one that seems close enough, since there may be some subtle differences, but the idea's the same. Have a look. What's going on here ?
    Attached Files
    Wattevah...
  • eccerr0r
    Solder Sloth
    • Nov 2012
    • 8701
    • USA

    #2
    Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

    Yeah looks like an isolation issue, I'm surprised you didn't fry anything as a lot of isolation issues cause meltdown...

    You could just get another smaller transformer to power the display, that would be isolated.

    Comment

    • Dannyx
      CertifiedAxhole
      • Aug 2016
      • 3912
      • Romania

      #3
      Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

      The strange thing is that there is a GND wire going between the instrument board and the "power" board, so GND SHOULD be common apparently and they become common by default due to this GND wire, at least that's what my buddy presumed. The schematic doesn't include the instrument panel sadly. I shall have to take it apart and take some pics and whatnot. The instrument board just has a single diode from the transformer, then that goes into a 7805. The GND of the 7805 I believe is common with the "power" GND.

      Question is WHY is this happening ? Doesn't the ammeter just measure a voltage across the shunt ? I think the shunt is R11 in the schematic.
      Wattevah...

      Comment

      • redwire
        Badcaps Legend
        • Dec 2010
        • 3907
        • Canada

        #4
        Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

        The panel meters need isolated windings (power) because they float at the output of the PSU, not GND.
        Panel meter common is tied to +Uout, because the current-sense resistor is there and these meters measure (current) as a voltage from COM to +I_SENSE.

        Comment

        • Dannyx
          CertifiedAxhole
          • Aug 2016
          • 3912
          • Romania

          #5
          Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

          Anything I could do to still keep this transformer instead of having to add another supply just for that ? My brain isn't quite functioning properly right now to come up with anything I don't think a separate supply can be obtained from a center tapped transformer as far as I know my basics...
          Wattevah...

          Comment

          • R_J
            Badcaps Legend
            • Jun 2012
            • 9535
            • Canada

            #6
            Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

            Does the transformer have a metal case around it or can you see any space around the core? you could add another winding if there was room.
            The only other thing I could think of might be to add a couple capacitors between the winding and the display to pass the a/c and still be isolated

            Comment

            • nightmechanic
              New Member
              • Jan 2018
              • 4
              • Israel

              #7
              Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

              You can use an isolated DC/DC converter such as this one:
              https://power.murata.com/en/nph15s2412ic.html

              (there are many options from different manufacturers - make sure you match the input range from your rectified 22V supply and output voltage and power that your displays need)

              Comment

              • Dannyx
                CertifiedAxhole
                • Aug 2016
                • 3912
                • Romania

                #8
                Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

                Can't remember exactly how the transformer looks, as I haven't looked at it up close, but I DID think of winding my own secondary. I imagine it doesn't require too great a current, so it shouldn't bee TOO difficult. I don't know too much about transformers and the different math behind them, like the wire gauge and length and junk, so would it be ok to just throw a piece of wire on there and measure the output or is there a more sophisticated approach to it ? Yeah, of course there is, I'm fully aware, but I was thinking something like a rule of thumb sort of deal.

                Caps in series sounds like another simple quick and dirty fix. Might try that first. Any values I should look out for in those caps ? I imagine poly film caps ? Sorry, I don't know these by name very well, so I usually call them by appearance: those blue disk snubbers found on SMPSs or those red boxes ?

                A DC-DC converter is another thing that crossed my mind. I have one from E-bay lying around, but I'm not sure if it's truly isolated. I doubt it. I'm pretty sure input GND is the same as output GND, so it's not floating. The display takes 12v, since it's got a 7805 immediately after the input, so input range is not too critical. What puzzled me to begin with is that the GND of this 7805 is connected to the GND of the power board, so that's not really "floating" is it ? I may be wrong - it's rather confusing
                Wattevah...

                Comment

                • budm
                  Badcaps Legend
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 40746
                  • USA

                  #9
                  Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

                  The circuit looks to be reversed engineered so I wonder if it is 100% correct.
                  Last edited by budm; 02-01-2018, 11:07 AM.
                  Never stop learning
                  Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                  Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                  Inverter testing using old CFL:
                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

                  Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
                  http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                  TV Factory reset codes listing:
                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

                  Comment

                  • Dannyx
                    CertifiedAxhole
                    • Aug 2016
                    • 3912
                    • Romania

                    #10
                    Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

                    Like I said, there could be slight differences between that schematic and my particular supply, but I'd say it's a good reference, because I drew part of its schematic myself at one point and I do recall some of the parts being similar, so I can imagine it's fairly close, if not very close indeed.
                    Wattevah...

                    Comment

                    • eccerr0r
                      Solder Sloth
                      • Nov 2012
                      • 8701
                      • USA

                      #11
                      Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working


                      Capacitive dropper power supply for the display!!!

                      Note if it's not obvious: DO NOT DO THIS.

                      Comment

                      • Dannyx
                        CertifiedAxhole
                        • Aug 2016
                        • 3912
                        • Romania

                        #12
                        Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

                        Originally posted by eccerr0r

                        Capacitive dropper power supply for the display!!!

                        Note if it's not obvious: DO NOT DO THIS.
                        No, I think he meant put the caps in series in with the secondary winding of the transformer, not the AC mains.
                        Wattevah...

                        Comment

                        • eccerr0r
                          Solder Sloth
                          • Nov 2012
                          • 8701
                          • USA

                          #13
                          Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

                          then that wouldn't be dropping anymore

                          I don't think you can get the reactance low enough so that you can actually power the display with the secondary, and if it's low enough, you won't get much isolation and you're still stuck with the same problem...
                          Last edited by eccerr0r; 02-02-2018, 01:08 AM.

                          Comment

                          • stj
                            Great Sage 齊天大聖
                            • Dec 2009
                            • 31015
                            • Albion

                            #14
                            Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

                            use a dc-dc convertor, or a 1:1 transformer intended for audio or something.
                            maybe the output ferrite choke from a pc psu could act as one if you seperated the windings at the end.

                            Comment

                            • Dannyx
                              CertifiedAxhole
                              • Aug 2016
                              • 3912
                              • Romania

                              #15
                              Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

                              Originally posted by stj
                              maybe the output ferrite choke from a pc psu could act as one if you separated the windings at the end.
                              I was just thinking of that, but I don't think it can be done. I was thinking of getting a (random) choke like that to sort-of make a transformer. One winding goes to the transformer, the other one becomes our "output"...problem is I imagine I'm shorting out the transformer through that coil and I'm not sure how many amps such a thing could push...not that those displays would require too much current, but just a thought...

                              Something like THIS.
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by Dannyx; 02-02-2018, 08:37 AM. Reason: Added photo
                              Wattevah...

                              Comment

                              • eccerr0r
                                Solder Sloth
                                • Nov 2012
                                • 8701
                                • USA

                                #16
                                Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

                                There is no simple solution.

                                You need a complete separate PSU or make another winding on the main transformer.

                                Else you need to get the complete schematic of the display ADC and we can study that.

                                Comment

                                • Dannyx
                                  CertifiedAxhole
                                  • Aug 2016
                                  • 3912
                                  • Romania

                                  #17
                                  Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

                                  Not sure where I'd be able to source that other than by reverse-engineering it, which shouldn't be TOO difficult. The main problem is the IC, since I don't recall it having anything written on it, as it's common for china stuff....Other than that, I remember it being just a few resistors.
                                  Wattevah...

                                  Comment

                                  • budm
                                    Badcaps Legend
                                    • Feb 2010
                                    • 40746
                                    • USA

                                    #18
                                    Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

                                    Can we at least see the picture of the display board?
                                    Never stop learning
                                    Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                                    http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                                    Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                                    http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                                    Inverter testing using old CFL:
                                    http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

                                    Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
                                    http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                                    TV Factory reset codes listing:
                                    http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

                                    Comment

                                    • Dannyx
                                      CertifiedAxhole
                                      • Aug 2016
                                      • 3912
                                      • Romania

                                      #19
                                      Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

                                      Originally posted by budm
                                      Can we at least see the picture of the display board?
                                      It's coming, but I have to take the thing apart again
                                      Wattevah...

                                      Comment

                                      • sam_sam_sam
                                        Badcaps Legend
                                        • Jul 2011
                                        • 6039
                                        • USA

                                        #20
                                        Re: 150d bench power supply ammeter not working

                                        If you do not need the full output of the transformer then pull the tape around the secondary winding and separate the center tap winding in two then you have two separate outputs and retape the secondary winding and you be ready to rock and roll

                                        Comment

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