Samxon question

[jonnyGURU]

I'm working with Fore Point on some builds and I had some cap questions...

Initially, Fore Point wanted to use Jun Fu secondary caps. I told them that I never heard of them and gave them a list of caps that I knew didn't have a reputation for being "bad".

The factory foreman reluctantly paid a visit to Samxon. They were on my list.

The foreman came back pleased with what he saw at Samxon, but when he threw the R&D guys a handful of caps to build a sample with, they sort of scoffed. They had said that they had QC issues with Samxon in the past. I haven't heard of these issues and I'm wondering what people here would say.

My "fall back" is to go ahead and use the Jun Fu, but stick with the WG series which are SGS rated at 2000 hours (as opposed to 1000 hours) at 105°C (as opposed to 85°C). I personally have no experience with the brand, but it looks good on paper.

[Scenic]

Re: Samxon question

JunFus are known crapcaps

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...ghlight=Jun+Fu

i pulled several of them out of ATX PSUs ... all shorted without visible signs

[linuxguru]

Re: Samxon question

Jun Fu is about as common as Fuhjyyu and those 'Saturn' logo caps in throwaway PSUs like Deer/L&C, Powmax/Leadman and similar. Just about any Samxon low-ESR 105c series should be waaaay more durable than Jun Fu.

[jonnyGURU]

Re: Samxon question

JunFus are known crapcaps

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...ghlight=Jun+Fu

Capxon and Teapo are also on that list, but both of those brands have faired well in power supplies (unlike motherboards).

i pulled several of them out of ATX PSUs ... all shorted without visible signs

Shorted but not buldging/leaking?

Jun Fu is about as common as Fuhjyyu and those 'Saturn' logo caps in throwaway PSUs like Deer/L&C, Powmax/Leadman and similar. Just about any Samxon low-ESR 105c series should be waaaay more durable than Jun Fu.

I haven't seen Jun Fu in Deer, Leadman, etc. But I have seen them in Topower and CWT including the fanless Channel Well's like the ones Antec uses for the Phantom (after they stopped using Fuhjyyu).

Are we for sure talking about the same caps here? I trust you guys but I want to make sure we're working off of "I know" information and not "I think I heard or maybe saw" information.

[kc8adu]

Re: Samxon question

samxon gl are known junk.

[linuxguru]

Re: Samxon question

The common Jun Fus I've seen are blue with light lettering, maybe light-blue/white. I've fixed several no-name PSUs (not necessarily L&C or Leadman, but of similar quality) by replacing Jun Fus. The dead caps are not in front of me right now, so I can't give you a percentage of visibly bulged failures, but I'd estimate maybe 10-20% on the secondary rails. They're probably in the same quality ballpark as Fuhjyyu, JPCon, CapXon, etc., and better than Asiacon, Arcon, YEC, Hermei, Chhsi, etc.

Edit: Ltec (used on some older AcBel PSUs) is probably better than Jun Fu, but I replace those as well, as a matter of course.

[jonnyGURU]

Re: Samxon question

The Jun Fu caps I have spec sheets for are HK, HS, LG, RM and WG.

HK and HS being low-ESR 105°C rated caps with a 1000 hour MTBF @ 105°C, LG and RM are 85°C, 2000 hour. I'm looking at these WG's that are 105°C, 2000 hour.

My docs are scanned, so they're black and white. Don't know the "color" of the caps until they send them over.

[kikkoman]

Re: Samxon question

it doesn't really matter what the spec sheets say. these caps ARE unreliable. period.

2000hrs isn't much. if you don't need ultra low ESR, there are e.g. Panasonic FM
that are rated for up to 7000hrs depending on size and Rubycon YXM with even 10.000hrs.

I don't know how deeply you are involved in the process, but if the decision which caps to use is in your hands, you shouldn't miss that chance.

[gonzo0815]

Re: Samxon question

Are Panasonic or Rubycons really THAT expensive? What is with Chemicon? too expensive?
Well, somehow Seasonic, Corsair and may be even Antec has managed to put those at least into their high end units.
Any way, i would rather see some Samxons then anything of the badcaps list in even a cheap PSU.
If the R&D guys have had some issues, they should say which and when. Then they can discuss this with a Samxon rep and see if those problems exist still today.
But i know, a burned child fears the fire.
I think ANY capacitor manufacturer has had some dud`s in the past (Rubycon =leaking bottom seals, Nichicon HM(N) plague, Chemicon KZG may be not that heat resistant on motherboards).

I think you can even go ahead and spec Teapo for those PSU`s.
If noise is not a concern, spec a high CFM fan too and well your on par with PCP&cooling. The enthusiast would certainly never mind a roaring fan, but this market is probably a niche market (except may be this units where marketet for servers).
If this PSU should something like Hig End, i certainly can`t understand this bean counting attitude.

To make it clearly, i certainly would never ever looking into buying a PSU with mediocre capacitor, as long as there are competitors with Chemicon or Rubycon capacitors.

[Scenic]

Re: Samxon question

Shorted but not buldging/leaking?

yep..

Edit: Ltec (used on some older AcBel PSUs) is probably better than Jun Fu, but I replace those as well, as a matter of course.

those LTecs i know look like Lelons (the logo)

[acstech]

Re: Samxon question

I'd like to see Panasonic caps in there myself. Other than that, I agree with Gonzo0815. At a minimum, Samxon.

[Big Pope]

Re: Samxon question

I'm working with Fore Point on some builds and I had some cap questions...

Initially, Fore Point wanted to use Jun Fu secondary caps. I told them that I never heard of them and gave them a list of caps that I knew didn't have a reputation for being "bad".

The factory foreman reluctantly paid a visit to Samxon. They were on my list.

The foreman came back pleased with what he saw at Samxon, but when he threw the R&D guys a handful of caps to build a sample with, they sort of scoffed. They had said that they had QC issues with Samxon in the past. I haven't heard of these issues and I'm wondering what people here would say.

My "fall back" is to go ahead and use the Jun Fu, but stick with the WG series which are SGS rated at 2000 hours (as opposed to 1000 hours) at 105°C (as opposed to 85°C). I personally have no experience with the brand, but it looks good on paper.

Thank you for your inforamtion, interesting. I really want to know more details about what they sort of scoffed? Which series? and when?

In true words, Samxon is more expensive Jun Fu, and other unknow brands. Also, the usage of capacitors is not too much on power supplys, less than motherbaords more. I don't think there is a pricing advantage for power supply with good brands capacitors.

[linuxguru]

Re: Samxon question

Big Pope: Sorry for the nit-picking, but I think you mean *cost* advantage, not *price* advantage. I would certainly pay more for a PSU with good caps straight from the factory - that gives the PSU manufacturer a *price* advantage, since they can find willing buyers that will pay more for their product.

Cost refers to how much the manufacturer pays. Price refers to how much the manufacturer can charge. Good caps usually give the PSU manufacturer a pricing advantage, at least at retail.

[starfury1]

Re: Samxon question

well there's a whole thread going somewhere here on this exact situation...
It, to me does cover many aspects that this involves

To bring it to your question,
me I rather see a quality cap used or whatever is a good reliable recommended Samxon series for psu at lest
(if such a beast exists?, appears from comments it does)

price and constant supply for production I suppose is the other issues that need to be considered from a manufacturing point of view I suppose.

on R&D
I can understand there reluctance to look at samxon due past experience
this may not be the case now
(there also appears to have been counterfeits around ?)

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3099

yes and true what are considered to be crap caps can last,
depending on a few factors I suppose,
seems getting rid of heat is a good one to start with.
(this alone may make or break Jun Fu's use in the psu...I dont know)

I guess at the end of the day $ will decide the decision.

From what BP is saying samxon is going to prove more expensive
then the Jun Fu
If you did decided to go that way

(generally speaking here)

if the company wants to build a good reputation for a reliable supply (hopefully)
then I guess a Quality cap is the only way to go.
(assuming designs up to par and the caps are used within there ratings)

but Joe and Jane bloggs arn't going to be looking inside and will only start to complain if it dies 2 days out of warranty.

if it was me and I am no expert at all
Id defiantly Do some temp and environment testing on those caps to try and work out a truer time to failure under real world conditions

but then again once it see's the warranty period
(plus 3 months I think now)
its not the manufacturer's problem really

The use of quality caps to me says the manufacture may actually care about the product they are building.

if I cracked a supply and found Jun Fu in it I wouldn't be overly recommending its use.
(but as I said, no expert on this)

no help real here, just my opinion.

Cheers

[starfury1]

Re: Samxon question

Scenic

JunFus are known crapcaps

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...ighlight=Jun+Fu

i pulled several of them out of ATX PSUs ... all shorted without visible signs

Caps going dry is one thing but caps going short is another
can we have a bit more info on this
where were they located and what damage was done by them going short...this is a bit of a worry,
I know they can go short but it tends to be a rarer thing from what I understand.

BTW was that photo for ref only as that is a 200V cap
High Voltage Electrolytics Caps are more prone to failure is my understanding

just wondering

Cheers

[gonzo0815]

Re: Samxon question

Scenic
High Voltage Electrolytics Caps are more prone to failure is my understanding
Cheers

I think they would be more reliable then lower voltage and especially low ESR caps (if there is no over voltage present).
But certainly, i am not an expert too

[Big Pope]

Re: Samxon question

Big Pope: Sorry for the nit-picking, but I think you mean *cost* advantage, not *price* advantage. I would certainly pay more for a PSU with good caps straight from the factory - that gives the PSU manufacturer a *price* advantage, since they can find willing buyers that will pay more for their product.

Cost refers to how much the manufacturer pays. Price refers to how much the manufacturer can charge. Good caps usually give the PSU manufacturer a pricing advantage, at least at retail.

Yes, nevermind, you are right. You got my meaning that *cost* advantage, not *price* advantage. Thanks.

I agree "Good caps usually give the PSU manufacturer a pricing advantage, at least at retail", but this matter will happen in famous brands only.

If the brand of power supply is not famous, it can't use good caps to attract end users, then they must use cheaper price to get the market first.

I put my eyes on manufacturers and commercial side, not end user. Of course i don't care to pay more cost with good caps power supply if i am a end user only. Do you agree? Just my opinion only, please don't mind.

[jonnyGURU]

Re: Samxon question

Are Panasonic or Rubycons really THAT expensive? What is with Chemicon? too expensive?
Well, somehow Seasonic, Corsair and may be even Antec has managed to put those at least into their high end units.

They are a bit more expensive and that's why you tend to only see them in higher end units where absorbing costs is easier. If you have a look in the BFG ES-800 we put out this month, you'll see it has nothing buy Chemicon caps in it... then again, this is a $200 retail Andyson based product. What I'm talking about here is a $100 retail Fore Point based product. Some BOM costs have to be taken into consideration.

Also, there's availability considerations too. You can't always get what you want from every cap manufacturer. And even when you can, there's often long lead times. Power supply factories do not stock parts. We have to buy the parts for each production run. When you tell people it takes four weeks to make a power supply, they laugh. But then when you point out that this four weeks starts with buying all of the parts on the BOM to final assembly including printing retail box, etc. it becomes more clear.

I think you can even go ahead and spec Teapo for those PSU`s.

Yeah. Teapos are cheaper and more available than the Jap caps, but are expensive as far as Chinese caps go and are still not available in every size, type, etc.

If noise is not a concern, spec a high CFM fan too and well your on par with PCP&cooling. The enthusiast would certainly never mind a roaring fan, but this market is probably a niche market (except may be this units where marketet for servers).

Noise is a concern, thanks.

If this PSU should something like Hig End, i certainly can`t understand this bean counting attitude.

It's not high end. And it's not just about counting beans. Like I said, see the ES-800: http://hardocp.com/article.html?art=...hlbnRodXNpYXN0

Not everyone can justify a $200 show piece power supply. Those ES-800's are built in small quantities with no corners cut. The PSU's I'm working on with Fore Point need to hit a $100 retail and need to be cranked out at a rate of 5K a month. I can't start with Rubycon, have Rubycon run out of a particular cap and then re-certify and re-test with a Teapo half way through the month.

[jonnyGURU]

Re: Samxon question

Thank you for your inforamtion, interesting. I really want to know more details about what they sort of scoffed? Which series? and when?

I'll find out the details. I was going to have them contact you, but as you were leaving for your Easter vacation, the foreman was already on his way to the Samxon factory.

[willawake]

Re: Samxon question

They are a bit more expensive and that's why you tend to only see them in higher end units where absorbing costs is easier.

corsair 550vx is $95 or $80 with rebate. chemicon/hitachi

availability concerns is a valid point though.