Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

[M25]

My system:
M/B: Gigabyte GA-7VRXP Rev 2.0 (VIA KT333)
CPU: AMD Athlon XP Palomino 2000+
RAM: 2 x 512MB DDR333
HDD: Seagate 120GB/Western Digital 80GB
PSU: Codegen 350W (running at 230V)
Graphics Card: Asus GeForce4 V8460 Ultra Deluxe

Hi everybody! I hope I can get some help from someone that knows things better than I do at the moment.



1. History in detail:

Ok, here's the story, so far:

I did a fresh install of WinXP SP2 some months ago, and ghosted my old W2K to my second harddrive. WinXP gradually got more and more instable. First program errors, then sudden reboots and finally really big problems to even boot windows (sudden reboot -> windows start up half way -> BSOD for a ½ second -> sudden reboot... over and over again). The reboots seemed to be more frequent when it was hot in my room = warmer computer, but not under stress.
Thought it was a problem with WinXP so I went back to my all time stable W2K by choosing to boot from the second harddrive at start up. This worked fine for a couple of days but suddenly I was getting reboots on the second drive too. Then I realized it was a hardware problem. In the end I couldn't boot in to neither of my harddrives.

First I thought it was the PSU (a Codegen 350W that came with the case. A no name that has worked without any problems for me) since I had similar problem symptoms a year ago when my Antec TruePower 550W started to misbehave (after only 2 years of use *see footnote). I tried with another PSU, no difference.

Then I did some memtest, no problems there either. Tried with just one RAM-stick in each of the 3 slots but couldn't boot into windows. Not a RAM problem.

Checked my harddrives with programs found on the "Ultimate Boot CD". No errors.

So now its either the mobo, CPU or the graphics card. I had no second replacements for those parts which made it a bit more difficult to get to the core of the problem (I don't even know how to check a graphics card for errors).

I disconnected both harddrives and run CPU Burn-In and Mersenne Prime Test (from the Ultimate Boot CD).
Suddenly I was getting errors, hang-ups and reboots. The temperature of the CPU, reported in BIOS, was still ok.

Thought I've found the problem. Ran another memtest and memtest+, but now I got a lot of errors (in pass 7 I think). Don't know how much the CPU effects memtests, but I guess it has it share.

I now took the computer apart and examined all the parts. The RAM and the CPU looked as new to the eye. However the mobo was a bit miscolored/darkened (from heat I suppose) on its backside just where the VRM mosfets (or what those little black "boxes" are called?) are located. On the frontside the soldering to these VRM mosfets was miscolored too.




The 5 caps closest to the VRM and the CPU all had bulged tops and one was bent at the bottom (2 x Choyo 3300uF 6,3V | 2 x GSC 1200uF 6,3V | 1 x G-Luxon 1000uF 6,3V). At the time I didn't really know that bulged caps was a problem...




I then reassembled the computer without harddrives and ran a new go with the CPU Burn-In test. It ran for hours without any errors. Earlier the errors would come as soon as 5-15 minutes. I hooked up the harddrive with W2K and was able to boot into windows now! But after 10 minutes or so the computer froze -> reset button. Ran a new CPU-test and was getting the errors again and sudden reboots, sometimes with no picture when it rebooted. If I didn't get a picture I had to shut it down and wait for a minute or two. Some thermal problem I guess.

Finally the computer just shut off without a reboot. Tried again later to boot, it was on for maybe a minute and then again just shut down completely.

At the same time I stumbled upon this whole world of bad caps when googling around for solving the problem. A big "thank you" to all of you!!
I decided to give recapping a chance. I bought replacements for the 5 caps mentioned before (for a start) from ELFA located here in Sweden. I chose Sanyo MV-WX that was recommend by CapacitorLab as a suitable caps for mobos.

I consider myself rather handy, even if it was some time since I last did soldering work. Even if the mobo wouldn't come to life again I could live with that. Since it's from the 2002 maybe it would be a good time to upgrade the entire computer anyway...

I got going with a new 60W soldering iron and struggled for quite a while, but couldn't get the solder to melt. So the next day I gave it a go with a 100W iron (with a rather big chisel tip, too big and clumsy IMO) and had better luck. But still it was a bit tricky to get the caps out at first, with the too large tip. (Could have used some practice too, I guess ;P but no old mobo to practice on though.) Soldered on the new caps and checked mobo for any possible damage.




I put the mobo back in the case and connected the PSU to it. I didn't install any RAM or the CPU or anything else, just case fans connected straight to the PSU. I was afraid that something might fry. I don't know if thats a Big NO-NO to just connect the PSU to the mobo without connecting anything else?
Nothing happened. Just the yellow little RAM-light on the mobo (that is lit whether or not there are RAM installed, don't really understand the point of that, maybe someone does?). The fans didn't even nudge.
So I installed CPU + heatsink, 1 RAM-stick and the graphics card to see if the mobo needed a CPU to boot. Nothing again! Just that yellow RAM-light.



Then it hitted me that the PSU fan didn't spin either. Disconnected the PSU from mobo and tried to "hotwire" it with a cord (green cord to black ground). I have never hotwired a PSU before so I don't know if it should work on my PSU. Did a reading of the 12V & 5V Molex with a multimeter. Zero volt, as I expected.
But still it was able to produce some power, since the yellow light when connected to mobo.



Opened up the PSU and found 2 caps bulging/leaking at the top. The brand of all the caps inside are "HEC", except for the 2 huge 200V that are "Jun Fu". The leaking ones are both 1000uF 10V what I can see. One is taller and the shorter one is labeled FHA (like some other caps in the PSU).



The fuse seems intact what I can see. Don't really know how a broken looks though.






2. PSU questions (Running at 230V!):

I know there is a shock hazard involved with PSUs and recapping them. But I have not found any good guide for that job. I would like to know how the procedure looks like. What the DOs and DON'Ts are. What the dangers are etc etc. I mostly want to learn. Repairing the PSU is not the main target here.

Do you think its the caps that are the problem with the PSU. Or is it shorted some how beyond repair?
Or is the green wire hotwire trick not working and the PSU is actually still working?

What kind of caps should I use? Same kind as the ones I used for the mobo? The caps I can get hold of have all kind of different typ names (MV-WX, UAX, RJH, MV-AX and so on...) and all this is totaly greek for me. Here is a link to the different types of caps I can get my hands on. It's in Swedish so please bear with me =)

http://www.elfa.se -> in left column, choose "Kondensatorer" -> choose "Elektrolytkondensatorer, hålmonterade"

Hope you do get something sense out of it =) Btw, "kondensator" means capacitor.

What caps should i change? Should i change the small 470uF 16V, they all look ok. How about the huge 470uF 200V?

Does the "FHA" that is labeled on some of the 1000uF stand for something important?

If i do a proper recap, is there still a risk that I fry a new mobo, CPU, RAM etc etc with the PSU?





Motherboard questions:

Do you think its a case of bad recapping or could the problem be the VRM?
It's possible that there could have been to much heat from the solder iron during the recapping, but I couldn't see any visible signs of that on the mobo. Is it possible that the heat could have destroyed one of the new caps? I know that I did put a little too much heat to one of them IMO, but then I don't have a clue what "too much heat" actually means.

Is this mobo now a PSU killer? What can a mobo do to a PSU?

Is it dangerous to connect a PSU to a mobo without CPU or RAM? What can happen?



A big THANK YOU to everyone who takes the time to answer!


__________________________________________
* I recently sent my Antec TruePower 550W for RMA before the 3-year warranty ran out on me. The PSU has been in its box for the last year since I never took the time to make a complaint about it. Today I got a completely new PSU from the RMA office, wrapped in plastic and everything. That I didn't expect! But as I've learned now I guess this one's caps are going to give problems later on as well...

[toastygoodness]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

i don't think it's dangerous to connect a board to the PSU without a cpu. in fact, you decrease the risk of accidentally frying your CPU and RAM if you soldered bad.

[Sparky]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

If you have that spare Antec PSU handy that came back from RMA I'd hook it up and try it. Considering the fact that the Codegen PSU has failing caps in it I wouldn't be surprised if everything works fine after changing the PSU.

I just wonder why the solder wouldn't melt with your 60W iron. Do you have high-temp solder or something? All I use is a 25W iron and it has always worked for me. Of course, I don't use lead-free solder either

BTW, that replacement Antec would be worth popping open to see what caps it has. Sometimes they occasionally didn't have fuhjyyu craps in them, but if it does you could get some replacement caps for it (rubycons, Samxons, or Sanyos would be good) and have a nice PSU then.

[M25]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

If you have that spare Antec PSU handy that came back from RMA I'd hook it up and try it. Considering the fact that the Codegen PSU has failing caps in it I wouldn't be surprised if everything works fine after changing the PSU.

I'm a bit afraid that maybe the board would damage the Antec PSU too. That would be a shame being all new and everything.
I find it quite strange if the mobo didn't have anything to do with the death of the PSU since it did function before the recap, and now after recap it wont fire up at all. But hey, thats why I'm asking for guidance

I just wonder why the solder wouldn't melt with your 60W iron. Do you have high-temp solder or something?

It could be a mixture between tough solder on the mobo, an iron not hot enough and bad technique of me.

BTW, that replacement Antec would be worth popping open to see what caps it has. Sometimes they occasionally didn't have fuhjyyu craps in them, but if it does you could get some replacement caps for it (rubycons, Samxons, or Sanyos would be good) and have a nice PSU then.

What typ of caps from Sanyo should I use in a PSU? Is the MV-WX a good choice?



The Corsair HX620W is the one I had my eyes on too for my new computer. Thinking of selling the Antec since its still brand new.
I just e-mailed Corsair earlier in the week asking about their 5-year warranty but haven't got an answer yet. Their site says that they only give warranty to products bought from authorized resellers (that goes for the RAMs anyway), but they don't have any authorized resellers for PSUs in Sweden. Still its not a problem to get ones hand of one of those babys here.
Then there is the problem if I had to RMA it. I would have to ship it over to the states instead of an Europe office (I guess). I don't know who would pay the shipment then (without even mentioning the extra time it would take).

[kc8adu]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

i doubt you will hurt the psu.that codegen cheapie died on its own due to crap parts.
unless you have a solder short or installed a cap backwards i bet it will work.clear cmos too.

[gonzo0815]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

Those Codeggen PSU`s are all crap, and i have had a few systems with burned out parts due to over voltage caused by them.

So replace it and go with your Antec.
A good PSU would most likely do not burn, if the board is faulty.
Only such POS like Deer, Codeggen and others where the crappy protection circuit is not working, could be damaged by error conditions due to other parts.

[tazwegion]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

Codegen's are definitely a suspect PSU (to begin with), and NOT worthy of decent capacitors IHMO, I actually did bother and replaced them in a 550w unit which began to fail anyway 6~12 months later... I'm sticking to recapped Antecs from now on!

AFAIK it's PSU's that kill motherboards not the other way around... I'd give the RMA'ed Antec a quick go!

[M25]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

Bought a used ASUS A7N8X-XE mobo (from Tradera, a Swedish E-Bay copy) that I got today. In case I don't get my Gigabyte up and running its still should be a better mobo. Haven't tried it yet since my Zalman CPU-cooler would interfere with the PSU when everything is mounted inside the case. Waiting to get another cooler in the next couple of days (also from Tradera). I won't put the original heatsink from AMD to just rip it out a day or two later. It sounds terrible and doesn't do a good job, as one would expect from a boxed cooler.

I took a real close look at the Gigabyte mobo yesterday. I just might have damaged a circuit, I'm not sure. Didn't see it before. But its really small and I don't have a magnifier, so I can't really tell. Think I'll borrow my brothers camera and see if I can get some sharp close-ups that I can zoom in in the computer. (The pics I've posted so far are taken with my mobile phone).

Anyway, now I've taken a photo of the discolored back side, beneath the VRMs, that probably been overheated by the VRMs. Doesn't look all that good...



Took a peek through the holes in my new Antec True Controll 550, its packed with Fuhjyyu caps . Now I don't know what to do with it. Since I'm probably going to upgrade my whole system from scratch I'm thinking of selling it, since it's still all new, and get one from Corsair. But I'm not sure what to do right now actually. I guess I would be using my current computer as a back-up, and then a 100% 24/7 stable PSU wouldn't be needed in it. So my crappy Codegen could get some last use before its final rest, in case I just could cough some life in it . Or do you think that a recapping wouldn't bring it back?




BTW, how does a mobo behave if there's a bad soldering to the caps near the VRM and CPU? Any symptoms to look for?

[tazwegion]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

That looks like you've overheated something there, I was pondering what other components could be effected by using a 100w iron ie. IC's

By recapping the Codegen, you may only slightly extend the life of a POS power supply at best, I wouldn't bother as it would be a waste of good capacitors IMHO

BTW good score off Tradera, those nForce2 Asus boards were quite popular performers in their peak

[M25]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

That looks like you've overheated something there, I was pondering what other components could be effected by using a 100w iron ie. IC's

Just to clarify, in case some one has misunderstood, the discolored mobo looked like that prior any soldering took place. I tried to be as gentle as possible with the 100W iron, knowing it was a bit over sized for the job. But of course, I can't be sure if there's been any damage due to the heat.

I haven't tried the Antec with the mobo yet, still a bit scared that it would bring damage some how to the PSU . Come to think about it, I could try with my brothers old PSU he has in his Compaq Win98. I think its a 145W OEM Compaq PSU, and I guess he (hopefully) wouldn't be missing it in the first place if I ended up killing it as well .

BTW good score off Tradera, those nForce2 Asus boards were quite popular performers in their peak

Thanks . Don't really get it, but people are bidding higher on mobos with the VIA266 and VIA400 N/B than I had to pay for my nForce2 Ultra 400...

[tazwegion]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

Perhaps they're VIA diehards? I must admit to owning a few early VIA socketA platforms myself... does seem odd though, perhaps they've more integrated features?

BTW there is a possibility that your brother's PSU won't work with your proposed setup, it could either be AT (not ATX) or propriety wired (to suit only CompaQ mobo's)

[starfury1]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

although its looks like a lot of heat damage its probably ok if all was working before recap

looks more like discoloring of the solder mask from heat
not good thought for the PCB but does happen when you have components that get hot
(in this this case maybe a little too hot)

Yes going over with a mag glass or loupe is highly recommended I would consider it a "must" really as you do not want any shorts or damage to PCB.

A badly made solder joint would have high resistance or possible only good connection through a slither of solder and so to some extend the cap may as well not be there.
all joints should look smooth and like a volcano
(but a lot of times you end up with more solder then does really need to be there)

there is a post in the FAQ's on testing VRM HERE thanks to Akor for posting that one

As for the Codegen PSU drop in the bin is best advise, especially if its a known MB killer type

As to the Antec.. seems their a good supply when recapped for long term reliability. so that would be the go

Corsair are expensive but from the review at jonny's these things are little power houses...if memory serve they are of seasonic Manufacture.
Wish Id have bought one

anyway just my thoughts on it

[tazwegion]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

Corsair are expensive but from the review at jonny's these things are little power houses...if memory serve they are of seasonic Manufacture.
Wish Id have bought one

It's never too late y'know!

[B3Nut]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

Another vote for trashing the Codegen. I have a couple new ones here, never used, they came with a couple cases we got. I wasn't about to try and use them, they're horrid! The Apevia/Assfire POS looks like a Seasonic by comparison, they're so cheesy inside. Mine are missing all input filtration components, just like a Deer/L&C POS. How it's even legal to import this garbage baffles me, frankly.

If you're pinched for cash, the FSP Blue Storm 400 would run your system nicely, and only costs $50 at the egg. I've been using them as general-purpose replacements around the office, and they're working nicely. I have one in one of my home machines in fact, 3GHz P4 with 3 400GB SATA hard drives. Exhaust air is barely lukewarm, and it's been running almost constantly since January. Solid as a rock. I have been shutting the home machines down lately though to save electricity.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[gonzo0815]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

Well, the Antec is a good PSU, simply recap it and you would have not to worry about anything.
I think it should even be well suited for any actual system (unless you want a monster gaming rig).
Just toss this Codeggen, it is not worth to do anything with him, may be if you have some older P2 - P3 toys but not for any serious system.

[M25]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

Haven't really had the time to update since last post .

BTW there is a possibility that your brother's PSU won't work with your proposed setup, it could either be AT (not ATX) or propriety wired (to suit only CompaQ mobo's)

No, the Compaq is an ATX and I checked it with a voltmeter that it's normally wired. Connected it to the mobo and the PSU fan just gave a short flick. So the mobo is dead at the moment but that's ok since I've got a better one anyway now. Haven't bother myself trying to fix it, yet.
At the moment I'm actually running my system on that 145W Compaq . And it runs fine too. The only problem is that the placement of the ATX-connector on the Asus mobo is really stupid and the cable from the PSU is damn short. So I have to have the PSU standing on a box outside the case for the cable to reach, hehe... It's temporary.

there is a post in the FAQ's on testing VRM HERE thanks to Akor for posting that one

Yeah, I saw that post before and did a check on the VRMs. Either I'm doing it some how wrong or the VRMs are damaged. When testing the resistance (in step 3) I'm not getting zero ohms. Just to clarify if I'm doing it correct in step 3, do I measure the resistance from the ATX-connector on the mobo (correct pin of course) to the input & output of the VRMs? I'm not quite sure about which one is input and output either. Is input=source and output=drain?
I did the same test on my "new" mobo and it didn't give me zero resistance either, which made me think I was doing something wrong .

BTW, the Codegen is going in the bin.

I'm thinking of recapping the Antec, but haven't yet decided if I'm going to keep it or just sell it as it is. I guess it wouldn't have any problems running my next rig. But its a ATX12V so it has a 20-pin main power connector, no SATA or 6-pin PCIe. I would end up with a lot of adapters i guess . Anyone know if that would decrease the performance worth mentioning?
Now my question is what kind of caps should I use in the Antec? is the Sanyo Electrolytic capacitor, 105 °C type MV-WX, low impedance, miniature, radial the right choice?
The caps I can get hold of come from http://www.elfa.se/en, the place I mentioned in the first post. Didn't see that they have the site in english as well . So it would be very appreciated if someone, how knows better, could suggest which one to use?

[tazwegion]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

The 80mm fan in the POS Codegen is worth saving for a 'casefan' later down the track, I save all PSU fans (unless cactus) for this exact purpose

[Sparky]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

Only caps I've used to replace the fuhjyyus in Antecs are rubycons and samxons from Topcat. I don't see why the Sanyos wouldn't work, but I'm not sure on all the ripple and ESR ratings and such.

[Per Hansson]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

The Sanyo MV-WX are fine, I've used them on a few mobos

They are comparable to Rubycon ZL, it isn't what you'd use in a too recent K8 or P4 grade mobo though. Which is to say for Pentium 3 or Athlon XP based computers they will be just fine...

However Elfas selection of them is quite limited...

[M25]

Re: Dead PSU - Help a beginner, please

The 80mm fan in the POS Codegen is worth saving for a 'casefan' later down the track, I save all PSU fans (unless cactus) for this exact purpose

The fan has already been replaced once to a Zalman since the last one started to imitate a chainsaw. So it's a keeper .

Guess I'll go with the Sanyo's MV-WX then. Or do you Per know another place to get better caps from, since you are located in Sweden too?