CPU at 100% after RECAP

[Gianni]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

I have seen that Digikey sells Panasonic FM series: are these capacitors suitable for motherboard? Are they reliable?
If I'm not wrong, they support more current and have smaller ESR than Rubycon ZL/ZLH.

TIA
Gianni

[gdement]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

You mean that could be a problem with the CPU heatsink?
In this case I think the CPU will decrease the speed but I don't think it stays always at 100% even if you are doing nothing, like was happening to me.
The PC was so slow because CPU was always working at 100%

Actually it's the other way around: The CPU was working at 100% because it was so slow.

Windows is a complicated OS, there's always stuff going on even if you aren't doing anything with it. Your CPU was running so slow that it couldn't keep up with basic tasks that are always running in the background. Thus it showed 100% busy even when "idle".

I have seen that Digikey sells Panasonic FM series: are these capacitors suitable for motherboard? Are they reliable?
If I'm not wrong, they support more current and have smaller ESR than Rubycon ZL/ZLH.

Yes, Panasonic FM is suitable for motherboards, and they have a reliable track record. I'm not sure how their specs fit in compared to the Rubycons you mention.

[Gianni]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

Thanks gdement for everything.

I have just ordered Panasonic FM to recap the board

Gianni

[Gianni]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

Back again on this MOBO.

After recapping with Panasonic FM caps the board works correctly but another problem has appeared and I don't know what to do.
The PC works without problem till CPU temperature is below 50°C; if temp rises over the PC freezes.
The HS is clean and mounted correctly, the HS-FAN has no problem.

Since the PC has worked for a long time with badcaps, is it possible that something (VRM-CPU) is damaged on the board and gives this problem?

The last thing I have to try is to replace the CPU but unfortunately I have not a spare P4 to do this test.

A strange thing is that in the BIOS I always see the MOBO temp at 25°C.
The CPU temperature is around 35/38°C at turn on; when the PC is used to browse, for text editing and other simple task the temperature is around 44-47°C; it is enough to open a web page with a clip (youtube) and the temperature rises over 50°C and the PC freezes.
If ambient temperature is high, like yesterday 31°C, it is impossible to use the PC because browsing brings the temp over 50°C after 10 minutes.
AFAIK the CPU temperature must be at 65°C or higher to make P4 decreasing the speed, but in any case it shouldn't freeze or shut down the PC.
I have already added a FAN to the cabinet but it is not enough.

Any suggestion is welcome.
Gianni

[Gianni]

I need HELP

Hi all,

I need help to fix this PC.

I have tested it for a week and I was wrong in my last post, probably is not the CPU, I think the MOBO is weird.

Sometimes I can load it under test at 100%, the CPU temp reaches 55ºC, and it doesn't crash or shows any problem but every now and than after few minutes I run the test it freezes or crashes with CPU temp at 42-44ºC.
When it crashes, the screen becomes black but the MOBO doesn't shut down, at least the HS/Fan is on. When it crashes in this way I can't always restart it normally: sometimes I have to try 3 or 4 time to restart the PC, sometimes I must clear CMOS otherwise the MOBO doesn't post.

Usually, if I shut down the PC correctly, when I turn on it, I need to restart it 2 or 3 time to use it.
The first time the PC freezes before post, I see some withe blocks on the screen, the second/third time it starts correctly and after that it can works without problems for hours (browsing, text editor, mail...).
I have installed a game, it is not an heavy one, and playing with it sometimes I can crash the PC.
I have monitored the CPU Temp when I play an it doesn't exceed 48ºC.

What can I check/do in order to identify and fix the problem?

TIA
Gianni

[zandrax]

Re: I need HELP

Sometimes I can load it under test at 100%, the CPU temp reaches 55ºC, and it doesn't crash or shows any problem but every now and than after few minutes I run the test it freezes or crashes with CPU temp at 42-44ºC.
When it crashes, the screen becomes black but the MOBO doesn't shut down, at least the HS/Fan is on. When it crashes in this way I can't always restart it normally: sometimes I have to try 3 or 4 time to restart the PC, sometimes I must clear CMOS otherwise the MOBO doesn't post.

Usually, if I shut down the PC correctly, when I turn on it, I need to restart it 2 or 3 time to use it.
The first time the PC freezes before post, I see some withe blocks on the screen, the second/third time it starts correctly and after that it can works without problems for hours (browsing, text editor, mail...).

I once owned an Asus CUV4X-E (Pentium 3 mobo) which couldn't boot with a 1000 MHz cpu at stock clock (7.5x multiplier, 133 MHz fsb), but it started always at 500 MHz (66 MHz fsb) and sometimes at 750 (100 MHz): the only way to boot at 1000 was turning on the computer, wait 4-5 seconds and reset. After the boot the computer was rock stable, so I thought the vrm couldn't sustain the processor peak draw at boot or the hw monitor chip (the chip who checks voltages and cuts power when they are out of spec at boot) was damaged. Never discovered it, though I had suspects on the vrm.

Check caps again: solderings, voltages, etc. Check rectificators following Akor's guide.
Try the base config: mobo, cpu with heatsink, 1 memory stick, the graphic card and nothing else; if it boots, add a component at every boot unless it start misbehaving.
Change psu: looking at pics you posted, it seems an Allied one. Allied is a rebranded Deer, cheap chinese stuff, low power (around 200 W) and high ripple which is know to make computers unstable. Try a better unit: Fortron, Enermax, Corsair, Seasonic, Zalmann, ... almost every serious brand is better than a Deer.
Try setting the lowest fsb: near the AGP slot there is a switch with 4 pins, according to the manual the 100 MHz setting is OFF-OFF-ON-ON. After the change, the cpu should boot at 1800 MHz (18x multiplier, 100 MHz fsb instead of the usual 133).
Last choice: swap board or cpu to detect the faulty component.

Zandrax

[Gianni]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

Hi Zandrax

I will try changing the FSB at 100MHz to see if the MOBO starts correctly.

For Akor's guide: don't know if it helps in my case, his guide (IMHO) seems suitable in those case when the MOBO won't start at all; anyway when I have the MOBO on the table I can check tracks and so on.

For sure ASAP I will resolder everything even if I have double checked the MOBO after recap, maybe a dry joint is causing all troubles.

Try the base config: mobo, cpu with heatsink, 1 memory stick, the graphic card and nothing else; if it boots, add a component at every boot unless it start misbehaving.

You are right, I have not done this steps; I have only removed a TV Card because my friend don't use it. The only PCI card on the MOBO is a 56K Modem, than remain the HD, the DVD Drive and FDD.

PSU: at the moment it is a 400W Linkworld, a taiwanese one. I have replaced the recapped PSU to be sure that the problem is not coming from there. The Linkworld was in my PC and it is OK; I changed it 2 months ago because I added a SATA HDD and the Linkworld has not SATA power connector.
At the moment I have not better PSU than a new Allied 450W I bought 4 months ago because I was tired to disassemble my PC every time I had a PC to repair.
I know, now thanks to badcaps forum and discussion about Tecnoware, a decent PSU is a must to have a stable and reliable system, but for an old MOBO like this one I think an Allied is enough. When I opened this PC (Skintek brand), the PSU was a 250W but I can't remember the brand; I have to ask my friend if he has kept it so I can give you more details and maybe I can take some pics if I found something interesting in it.

In this period I have no money (I had to renounce vacation too ) to buy a PSU just to do test and my friend either; if I buy a good PSU and then I see the problem is still there I have wasted a lot of time and money (Panasonic FM caps 69.00€) for nothing.
Probably it would be better to replace the MOBO, I have already asked and it costs 65,00€.

Ok now I have to follow your suggestions and see if I can solve the problem, I will keep you informed.

Thanks
Gianni

P.S.: I have not spent 69.00€ to recap the board, I bought some more caps for future need. On the board I spent 17.00€.

[zandrax]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

I'm sorry you didn't go on holiday this summer and I understand your lack of money: these are hard times and are going to be even harder in next years
I hope to be wrong but only because hope is the last to die.

Anyway you're wrong in believing a cheap psu is enough for your new P4 board: if your power line is quite noisy (flickering lights, interference on tv, fridge releasing spikes and such), a cheap psu won't filter it; indeed it adds its noise and ripple to line noise. Any computer from P3 upwards is sensitive to noise, so a decent psu is recommended: I sent you a PM with a few details, check your box

Zandrax

[Gianni]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

zandrax I have spent so much money to buy a flat ( a small one)... that probably I will forgive vacation for many years

Update about PC: this morning my friend's daughter was playing and the PC crashed. It would not start at all, only then fan and led were on.
No POST, not even a single "beep" removing Ram, Video Card....

I have re-soldered everything: caps, Mosfet, inductances, regulators... everything bigger than 4 mm.
Than I have rebuild the PC and connected only the MOBO and PSU and turned it on: finally a series of 2beep" come out.
Than I added RAM and turn on it again: another series of "beep" but little bit different.
Then I added the vudeo card and I had the same beep as before.
I changed the video card the right beep of POST arrived.

I connected the PC to KB, mouse and Monitor and it worked fine till I try the game: after 5 minutes the PC crashed.

I set the FSB at 100MHz as you suggested, than I trurn on the PC and the working frequency was 2.1GHz.
I restarted the game and I was able to play for 35minutes without problem. Than I left the PC under test for an hour, I need to eat sometimes ;-) , and he showed no problem.
Happy but not persuaded, I brought the PC to my friend so he can work tomorrow and let me know if there are still problem.
I think the MOBO is not OK, but if can last till next year, my friend probably will be able to buy a new PC.

For the PSU: you are right again, I have thought only about power/caps but not noisy immunity... I have to find a good PSU also for this reason.

Thanks again, I'm afraid this will be not the last post on this subject... I'm crossing my fingers.

Gianni

[zandrax]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

[...]I connected the PC to KB, mouse and Monitor and it worked fine till I try the game: after 5 minutes the PC crashed.

I set the FSB at 100MHz as you suggested, than I trurn on the PC and the working frequency was 2.1GHz.
I restarted the game and I was able to play for 35minutes without problem. Than I left the PC under test for an hour, I need to eat sometimes ;-) , and he showed no problem.

So it's a 2.8 GHz cpu: 21x multiplier for 133 MHz fsb. Running at 2100 MHz force it to draw less current and to be colder because power consumption and dissipation grow linearly with frequency. You should check if the heatsink is correctly mounted with a good thermal paste (good silver one); IMHO other possible culprits are the vrm (you checked and resoldered all caps and mosfets, I think it can be considered safe) and the psu.
Be sure it is stable before bringing the computer back to your friend: run Memtest86+ (a memory diagnostic which cycles 12 tests) for at least 10 cycles, then run a cpu-intensive task such as Mersenne prime (for linux) or Prime95 (for windows, same link) for 12 hours. You can find Memtest, mersenne prime and other utilities (e.g. disk diagnostics) in the Ultimate Boot CD.

Keep us updated.
Zandrax

[Gianni]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

The PC has returned back

It worked fine for 2 days with FSB at 100MHz then it started again to crash without any specific reason.
Now it always starts correctly but you can expect it crashes sooner or later; I have tested it yesterday and I have not found a way to reproduced the problem.
It can works for hours without problem and crash when I load it at maximum or it can crash within 5 minutes after boot just browsing without overloading it, the problem is not repetitive.
The only behavior that looks repetitive is that I must wait 10 minutes after crash before I'm able to turn it on and get the POST.
If I turn it on immediately after crash, most of the time it doesn't POST: if it start, it freezes immediately after VIA Logo appears on the screen.
Sometimes it can start after crash but it gives strange messages like FDD not found, OS missing or not installed, file \system32\hal.dll corrupted or missing etc...
When it crashed if I press the reset button I hear a very weak "beep" but the PC doesn't restart, the HS/Fan continues to run and the message "no input signal" remains on the screen.
When I wait 10 minutes, the PC POST but always warn about CPU has changed or settings in the BIOS are not correct so I have to press F1 to continue or press "Del" to enter BIOS setup.


Tonight I will test the mobo outside the cabinet, I want to turn it on and using an hairdryer I want to warm different parts to see if I can find any area that cause the problem when the temperature rises.
I can attach also the scope to monitor voltages, but I don't know if it can really help to identify the problem.
I have changed Linkworld PSU with a new Allied but the problem is the same.

I know nothing about BIOS but is it normal that it always asks for right settings after crash? That means that during a crash the BIOS gets some modifications or this is a symptom of a problem about it?

Ciao
Gianni

[zandrax]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

It can works for hours without problem and crash when I load it at maximum or it can crash within 5 minutes after boot just browsing without overloading it, the problem is not repetitive.
The only behavior that looks repetitive is that I must wait 10 minutes after crash before I'm able to turn it on and get the POST.

Quite strange: this may be due overheating or damaged components. I can't tell you what to look for, so I approve the hairdryer procedure: anyway start with the chipset, it's the first suspect.

When I wait 10 minutes, the PC POST but always warn about CPU has changed or settings in the BIOS are not correct so I have to press F1 to continue or press "Del" to enter BIOS setup. [...] I know nothing about BIOS but is it normal that it always asks for right settings after crash? That means that during a crash the BIOS gets some modifications or this is a symptom of a problem about it?

On some boards, if the bios detects a failed boot attempts then it resets the cmos and loads fail-safe values (lowest frequencies and multiplier, so cpu can post): my old mobo did that. The warning is normal after a crash, it's simply not normal for the board to crash so often

I have changed Linkworld PSU with a new Allied but the problem is the same.

Same quality here (cheap chinese stuff), so don't expect an improvement: ask a good psu to your pc vendor friend or buy it.
I bought my Newton Power at an ebay auction, the vendor still sells the NPS400AB "B model" (with a 4 pin P4 connector, the 6 pin power connector for graphic cards and two balanced 12 V rails) and the "A model" (with only a 8 pin EPS connector and different 12 V rails) for bargain prices: note that he ships only to Italy.

Zandrax

[Gianni]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

Hi zandrax

the test with hairdryer was useless, I have not been able to crash the board, the problem seems independent from temperature.

After warming the board I wanted to test it with my videocard since the original one based on ATI chip has failed 3 days ago: I left the MOBO running while I was removing the Videocard from my PC.
It took me 10 minutes so the MOBO had time enough to get cooler; when I clicked on "Start" to stop Win the MOBO crashed
I restarted it after 10 minutes, and it was OK so I switch it off correctly.
I replaced the Videocard and when I turned it on the "beep" was warning me about missing videocard!!
I tried five time to restart it, I tried also to remove and to reinsert it but nothing changed, the MOBO doesn't recognize it.
Don't know why, but my Nvidia 128MB and ATI 128MB are not detected, only the Nvidia 64MB seems to work on the MOBO.
As I didn't know what to do more, I soldered the AGP connector to see if this new problem disappear: nothing at all, the original Videocard and my videocard are still not detected.

Well, I think it's time to give up, the last things I have to try it is to replace the PSU with a good one, like you suggested, and test the MOBO with another CPU, but I'm not optimistic.

I attach a pics of the MOBO under test.

Ciao
Gianni

[zandrax]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

I have not been able to crash the board, the problem seems independent from temperature.

So choices are some damaged components or a power issue.

the original one based on ATI chip has failed 3 days ago

Any idea why? Check the vmr near the AGP slot, videocards don't die without a reason.

Don't know why, but my Nvidia 128MB and ATI 128MB are not detected, only the Nvidia 64MB seems to work on the MOBO.
As I didn't know what to do more, I soldered the AGP connector to see if this new problem disappear: nothing at all, the original Videocard and my videocard are still not detected.

Long post: there are 3 major AGP standards (1.0, 2.0 and 3.0) which have a limited compatibility between each other. Old AGP 1x and 2x cards (standard AGP 1.0) require a signaling tension of 3.3 V and have a notch on the agp connector (if you see the card from the heatsink side, the notch is on the left half of connector), 4x (AGP 2.0) and 8X (AGP 3.0) require a lower tension and have a different notch (right half: see AGP: Compatibility entry in Wikipedia for pictures).

Your board is AGP 8x, so old AGP 1.0 cards won't boot at all, most (though not all) 4x and all 8x works: I wrote "most 4x cards" because 4x and 8x share the same notch, but 8x signaling tension is 0.8 V and 4x is 1.5; most early AGP 8x motherboards (2001-03 period) supports both 4x and 8x cards while those from 2003-06 era (late 8x period) only 8x.
If things weren't complex enough, some <ironic>"smart"</ironic> motherboard manifacturers employed the so-called universal AGP slot, a notchless one which is supposed to work with both AGP 1.0 and 2.0 standards: sad to say, boards were made for a single standard only (usally 4x or 8x) and putting a 2x card leads to a complete motherboard destruction. Even some "smart" graphic manifacturer produced some chips which can work on both 4x and 8x standards and manifacturers produced both 4x and 8x boards which are almost identical except for different signaling tension. Write the name of all videochips, I can look for the "surely 4x", "surely 8x" and "unsure standard" cards.

Keep us updated.

Zandrax

[Gianni]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

Any idea why? Check the vmr near the AGP slot, videocards don't die without a reason.

The videocard is not dead, I tested it on my PC and is working.
The ATI, it was mounted since the PC was assembled, failed 4 days ago so I had a spare Nvidia 64MB (4X AGP) and I inserted it.
The MOBO support 4X/8X AGP but now it doesn't recognize the videocard 8X, in fact it doesn't recognize my Nvidia 128MB (8X); something on the MOBO is wrong with AGP bus but I have no idea what I have to look for.
I inspected the board with a magnifying lens but I have not seen problem

I'm starting to think that something is damaged and is worsening slowly everyday.
Every time the PC looks stable, after few days it starts with problem... different problem: first it started to freeze suddenly, then it had problem starting correctly, now it doesn't recognize AGP videocard.

The funny thing is that sometimes it works fine like last night: my daughter played for an hour and before I went to sleep, I launched a long load test and this morning it was still running, the MOBO worked all night.

It makes me so angry to see it works very fine one day and the other day it crashes or doesn't start correctly.

I have to add that I was so desperate I replaced also small electrolytic caps, even if I have read it is not necessary most of the time.

Ciao
Gianni

[arneson]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

This is simple but I've been running into it a lot.
Systems that get flaky for no reason with a weak bios battery.
That 2032 button cell is cheap at the drug store, $2.89.
I keep those and the 2026 and a few others in the fridge.
This could be something with windows internet time update, turn that feature off when the bios clock settings are not stable.

[Newbie2]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

The CR2032 battery on the motherboard is a circle battery. You have to get the exact CR2032 size, other sizes will not fit.

Try getting a cheap PCI video card and see if that will work.

[kc8adu]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

i would look at the psu.

[zandrax]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

The videocard is not dead, I tested it on my PC and is working.
The ATI, it was mounted since the PC was assembled, failed 4 days ago so I had a spare Nvidia 64MB (4X AGP) and I inserted it.
The MOBO support 4X/8X AGP but now it doesn't recognize the videocard 8X, in fact it doesn't recognize my Nvidia 128MB (8X); something on the MOBO is wrong with AGP bus but I have no idea what I have to look for.
I inspected the board with a magnifying lens but I have not seen problem

Hmm, let me think: maybe you nVidia 64 MB card is a low performance, low consumption model (say GeForce 2 MX and 4 MX ones) while your 128 MB ones draw more (e.g. Ati 9500-9600, nForce FX5600 and such): do the 128 MB cards have a Molex connector for auxiliary power? If they do, this may be a power-related issue, which lead to cheap psu or damaged motherboard (paths or AGP vrm).

I'm starting to think that something is damaged and is worsening slowly everyday.
Every time the PC looks stable, after few days it starts with problem... different problem: first it started to freeze suddenly, then it had problem starting correctly, now it doesn't recognize AGP videocard.

The funny thing is that sometimes it works fine like last night: my daughter played for an hour and before I went to sleep, I launched a long load test and this morning it was still running, the MOBO worked all night.

Progressive crashes are often related to motherboard issue, maybe heat or incremental damage: you probed for heat problems without results and replaced or resoldered almost every cap on it s we can safely exclude both heat and badcaps.
If freezes aren't progressive but random, both motherboard and psu are suspected: at this point, I think only a component-by-component replacement can address this issue.

I agree with KC8: check the psu before swapping the motherboard.

Zandrax

[Gianni]

Re: CPU at 100% after RECAP

@ arneson: sorry but I can't follow you, I don't understand how "windows internet time update" can crash the MOBO when it is not connected.
Please can you clarify? Probably you are talking about something I don't know about WinXP.

About BIOS battery, I have replaced it and verified with a DMM and it is OK.
The only thing strange is that sometime with Everest, when I read the MOBO parameters, the Battery voltage is displayed as 2.03V instead of 3.03V. I don't know if this problem depends on Everest, Windows or it is "part of the problem", but I swear the voltage is 3.03V.

@ Newbie2: the battery is CR2032. About the video card I stay with Nvidia 64MB if no other problem happens with AGP bus.

@ kc8adu and zandrax: I'm trying to get a Newton Power, zandrax you know about it. About the videocard: they have not an auxiliary power connector, they are ATI Radeon 9200 and Nvidia GeForce FX5200.

Today I have used the PC and it worked without problems. I have run another load test and it succeeded.
By the way, my friend gave me the original PSU, fortunately she has not trashed it yet. It is a Seasonic 250W, I attach here a picture. The OST caps look good, they are not bulged or leaking. If I can, I will give it a run on my Chroma active load to see how good are the voltages... ok if my boss is not in office .
I think this PSU is not so bad compared to the Pan Star (attached picture) which is the same power rating. The Pan Star is full of JPCON caps, one is bulged on the output. By the way, it is better to say "Pan Star" is empty: few caps on output, no output inductance and no input filter.
The fan is missing because I have used it in one cabinet , I decided that this PSU is good only for trash.

I have also the possibility to use a P4 2.66GHz instead of the 2.8, next week i have to meet a friend that have one spare CPU.

Thanks for your help, I will let you know how it goes
Gianni