RiddleMeThis - What smokes but doesn't burn?

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  • Crystaleyes
    Badcaps Veteran
    • Sep 2021
    • 493
    • Brazil

    #1

    RiddleMeThis - What smokes but doesn't burn?

    Hi all,

    hope life is treating you well.

    I have a question, as I am genuinely puzzled.

    There is this old Tektronix 2215 scope which has been laying around for some time, that I knew had some issue, but couldn't remember what...
    Anyways, last night, I thought I'd give it a look, as space is needed, so put it on the bench and plugged it in.
    The CRT had a terrible trace which only filled half the screen and didn't seem to respond much to any of the controls, so I decided to give it 15 minutes to warm up whilst I cleared up the bench a bit.
    After maybe ten minutes, I heard the dreaded 'pffft-pfssss-pop' followed by the most almighty amount of smoke!
    Even though I'd yanked the plug from the socket, there was so much smoke coming from the HV section, that I was expecting to see flames.. But no, just plumes of smoke.
    I mean, I have an impressive record of toasting electronic components but I honestly don't remember such a dramatic event without flames.
    As it sank in that that was a major fuck-up, I realised that at least the toasted component would indicate in which circuit the problem lay, so set about opening the HV section which is sandwiched between the main board and another smaller board which sits above.

    Anyway... the point is, there was nothing burnt!

    None of the caps had exploded, no resistor had roasted, no damage was done to any component or trace on either board. Not even the slightest scorch mark.

    Weirder still, is that now the scope (almost) works fine. The intensity and beam finder aren't quite right and the display judders and jiggles around, but the CRT now shows full waveforms.

    So what the fuck???


    What am I missing?
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Crystaleyes; 07-02-2023, 02:26 PM.
  • CapLeaker
    Leaking Member
    • Dec 2014
    • 7972
    • Canada

    #2
    Re: RiddleMeThis - What smokes but doesn't burn?

    Usually these are known for to do this kind of noise in the PSU filter section (X cap). Sounds like it and smokes like crazy too.

    Comment

    • Per Hansson
      Super Moderator
      • Jul 2005
      • 5895
      • Sweden

      #3
      Re: RiddleMeThis - What smokes but doesn't burn?

      Probably one of the Rifa caps let out the smoke, they can be inside the mains filter too.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAbrU17hLTM
      Last edited by Per Hansson; 07-02-2023, 02:25 PM.
      "The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."

      Comment

      • Crystaleyes
        Badcaps Veteran
        • Sep 2021
        • 493
        • Brazil

        #4
        Re: RiddleMeThis - What smokes but doesn't burn?

        Originally posted by Per Hansson
        Probably one of the Rifa caps let out the smoke,
        Holy Guacamole Batman...

        You hit the nail on the head.

        Thank you.


        Everyday is indeed a school day!
        Last edited by Crystaleyes; 07-02-2023, 04:24 PM.

        Comment

        • Per Hansson
          Super Moderator
          • Jul 2005
          • 5895
          • Sweden

          #5
          Re: RiddleMeThis - What smokes but doesn't burn?

          You're welcome
          C903 C904 C907 C908 are 250VAC 2200pF Rifa PME271 Y class safety caps on the preregulator board.
          C901 is a 250VAC 10000pF Rifa PME271 Y class safety cap located on the main PCB under the line filter.

          They are actually still in production, I have the same scope and used identical replacements in mine.
          Some people do frown on this because the way they fail, but I see it as they lasted 30 years so who am I to complain
          (They fail due to ingress of moisture, so it depends on how the unit was stored if it is a problem or not).
          Was it any of these that failed or was it actually the ones inside the line filter? (IEC receptacle)
          https://www.digikey.com/en/products/...22MR30/1927355
          https://www.digikey.com/en/products/...10MR30/1927357
          Attached Files
          "The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."

          Comment

          • Crystaleyes
            Badcaps Veteran
            • Sep 2021
            • 493
            • Brazil

            #6
            Re: RiddleMeThis - What smokes but doesn't burn?

            Great info. Thanks again.

            For now, I have just swapped them out with polyesters and that seems to be ok. Getting original Rifa's here in Brazil is not cheap (+/- $10 ea).

            A much bigger hurdle right now is with what to replace the C628 matched set on the A12 Sweep board?

            One of them is a polarised 0.01uF and what appears to be electrolytic!

            Comment

            • Per Hansson
              Super Moderator
              • Jul 2005
              • 5895
              • Sweden

              #7
              Re: RiddleMeThis - What smokes but doesn't burn?

              Originally posted by Crystaleyes
              Great info. Thanks again.

              For now, I have just swapped them out with polyesters and that seems to be ok. Getting original Rifa's here in Brazil is not cheap (+/- $10 ea).
              You can replace them with any other safety rated Y capacitors.

              Originally posted by Crystaleyes
              A much bigger hurdle right now is with what to replace the C628 matched set on the A12 Sweep board?

              One of them is a polarised 0.01uF and what appears to be electrolytic!
              Do not change those capacitors, they are extremely reliable and as you see part of a matched set precision capacitors!
              "The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."

              Comment

              • stj
                Great Sage 齊天大聖
                • Dec 2009
                • 30917
                • Albion

                #8
                Re: RiddleMeThis - What smokes but doesn't burn?

                Originally posted by Per Hansson
                You're welcome
                They fail due to ingress of moisture, so it depends on how the unit was stored if it is a problem or not
                no, they fail because the epoxy shrinks over the years until it cracks.
                that's why you dont get similar problems with caps potted into plastic shells

                a friend had hundreds of cracked rifa's - NOS in the bags!
                (he had an electronic parts store)

                Comment

                • Crystaleyes
                  Badcaps Veteran
                  • Sep 2021
                  • 493
                  • Brazil

                  #9
                  Re: RiddleMeThis - What smokes but doesn't burn?

                  I found two out of the four on the power board had cracked. Only very finely.

                  For sure, without the plumes of smoke, it would have been a long time before I would have ever noticed.

                  Nuts as you like!

                  Comment

                  • Per Hansson
                    Super Moderator
                    • Jul 2005
                    • 5895
                    • Sweden

                    #10
                    Re: RiddleMeThis - What smokes but doesn't burn?

                    Originally posted by stj
                    no, they fail because the epoxy shrinks over the years until it cracks.
                    that's why you dont get similar problems with caps potted into plastic shells

                    a friend had hundreds of cracked rifa's - NOS in the bags!
                    (he had an electronic parts store)
                    I meant that they fail due to moisture ingress through those cracks.
                    "The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."

                    Comment

                    • stj
                      Great Sage 齊天大聖
                      • Dec 2009
                      • 30917
                      • Albion

                      #11
                      Re: RiddleMeThis - What smokes but doesn't burn?

                      a cheap bastard could put them in an oven for a while and then coat them in RTV

                      Comment

                      • eccerr0r
                        Solder Sloth
                        • Nov 2012
                        • 8662
                        • USA

                        #12
                        Re: RiddleMeThis - What smokes but doesn't burn?

                        bake and re-seal with another layer of epoxy, why not?

                        Comment

                        • Crystaleyes
                          Badcaps Veteran
                          • Sep 2021
                          • 493
                          • Brazil

                          #13
                          Re: RiddleMeThis - What smokes but doesn't burn?

                          Originally posted by Per Hansson

                          Do not change those capacitors, they are extremely reliable and as you see part of a matched set precision capacitors!
                          I'll put them back in then, eh?

                          Comment

                          • Per Hansson
                            Super Moderator
                            • Jul 2005
                            • 5895
                            • Sweden

                            #14
                            Re: RiddleMeThis - What smokes but doesn't burn?

                            Originally posted by Crystaleyes
                            I'll put them back in then, eh?
                            Yes, you will not find matched replacements for these capacitors.
                            There was a thread on eevblog about them a year or so ago with a better explanation than I can give but I can't find it again.
                            "The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."

                            Comment

                            • eccerr0r
                              Solder Sloth
                              • Nov 2012
                              • 8662
                              • USA

                              #15
                              Re: RiddleMeThis - What smokes but doesn't burn?

                              I still need to recap my Tektronix 2465 and 2440 that also use these RIFAs. However possibly due to the fact I live in a fairly arid environment, they haven't started smoking...

                              Comment

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