Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

[eccerr0r]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

That was kind of a surprise to me when I was trying to debug this last TL494 PSU, after seeing so many ATX PSUs where the 2-transistor or a viper or the such provides power for the TL494 which this circuit does not (since it is not ATX and uses a mechanical switch to power up/down). Thus was expecting that same line power charger as the 384x uses but it couldn't have been done this way since that would break isolation... until it dawned on me that there were too many components there to simply pass the transformer coupling to the switch transistors...

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

The UC3846 and UC3847 are part of the "family" and can drive half or full bridge inverters.

The typical power scheme for 384# PWMs uses a fairly high value resistor connected to the rectified AC that charges a capacitor that is paralleled with a zener to provide start-up power. There is a winding on the transformer that then provides Vcc for continued operation.

IIRC, in TL494-based half bridge designs, the bridge self-oscillates for a few cycles, which provides Vcc to the TL494, which then controls the inverter. One thing to watch for in these designs is that after turning off AC power, that self-oscillation can start again while the input lytics' voltage decays, resulting in output voltage a second or two after AC was switched off (BTDTGTTS).

[eccerr0r]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

Interesting, the current/voltage mode never made much sense as current is instantly converted to voltage with that current sense resistor...which is used as a voltage into the control circuitry! But indeed there are two sense inputs on the UC384x.

The UC384x PSUs I see, invariably the controller chip is on the hot/line side so it can monitor switch current. However I always wondered about how much power is being burned supplying the UC384x, though usually less than 2 watts or so. The TL494s seem to always be on the cold/isolated side of the PSU though it has two error amps (and two outputs).

Since the UC384x only has one output, it can only drive one MOSFET without external devices. The TL494 has two outputs and I thought pretty much all of the ones I've seen were BJT switches in push pull...probably losing power in base drive.

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

The TL494, like the SG3524, is voltage mode and 1970s technology. The UC384# family are current mode and 1980s technology. Voltage mode means there is just one feedback loop, sensing the output voltage. Current mode means there is also a feedback loop for the main transformer primary current, which allows limiting the current for each current pulse. Having just the one feedback loop, TL494 type PWMs have somewhat simpler compensation. OTOH, the maximum practical switch frequency for 384# family PWMs is higher, which means MOSFETs can be used to fuller advantage.

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

Looking at that SEGOTEP "500W" P/S, the input lytic, TO-220 switch devices, heatsinks, and output inductors (-26 material, suggesting transistors and a switch frequency under 50KHz, probably 70%-75% efficiency) look more suited to 235W-250W continuous.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

Well, not the first one to present a FDPS-100N-R5 but I picked this up from a hamfest. It was dead as a doornail on first powerup. Apparently quite abused and found a broken resistor, then found it did not hold up voltage. Pretty much instantly blamed C9, a 47uF 35V capacitor, and after replacing that it fired right up.

Not sure if this psu was meant to really be open frame, was there a case for it? Not sure how the rectifier is normally cooled, that thing should get quite warm if this psu really can get to 8 to 10A... how many watts should I be able to get out of this thing?

At least it was easy to fix. Interesting PSU, wonder how this (TL494) compares to the UC3842 based SMPS...

[Dan81]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

Segotep is almost like Intertech - the more cash you pay, the better the unit. The less you pay, the worse it looks inside. And trust me, I've laid eyes on some units that were more atrocious than leotron's unit.

As for OEM, couldn't find either designs... I highly doubt leotron's unit is made by Seasonic (it looks too barren to me) while yours apparently traces back to a brand named "Colorful".

[RukyCon]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

Looks a bit bare for a 500w unit, particularly the transformer, heatsinks, and primary capacitor all seem a bit small. IMO, It might be fine for up to 400w, but probably not too much more.

Speaking of Segotep, I have/had a Segotep 750w unit that I had bought for a computer I was building for my older sister, and before installing it, I took the lid off a took a couple of photos, and it overall didn't look like a bad PSU, other than the capacitor choice, which was a mix of Chengx with a few SC caps mixed in. And while I probably should've recapped it before giving it to my sister, I didn't because I didn't want the PSU to blow up the moment I recapped it, especially since it was still under warranty (it did not have any warranty stickers on it to stop me from opening it up, which is why I did). So odds are, it will probably be back here in a few years when I inevitably have to recap it.

[leotron]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

SEGOTEP , i kid you not , "super battleship f7 500w" a gift from a friend , read somewhere that seasonic build this one, doesn't have anything on the backside only green

kind regards from south america

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

What's with output rectifiers' current ratings being higher that the safety label current ratings for the 5V and 12V outputs! [/sarc] More seriously, my guess would be for the lower forward voltage, i.e. efficiency and lower heat dissipation.

I notice the one 12V rectifier that is fully visible has ferrite beads on the leads. These may take care of the spike noise the ferrite rod inductors filter out.

[Per Hansson]

Re: Delta Electronics DPS-180AB-20 A [PCB DPS-180AP-20]

* -12V Rail
NONE – this PSU does not have a -12V rail.

Cool, so it's not actually a ATX compliant power supply!
Makes sense since -12v is only used for RS232 and the PCI slots in general, neither of is present in this PC...

[momaka]

Delta Electronics DPS-180AB-20 A [PCB DPS-180AP-20]

It's been a while since I posted one of these, hasn't it.?

I guess I will start with something mundane to get back in shape for posting more.

For today's consideration is a Delta Electronics DPS-180AB-20 A, rev. 0B small form factor PSU from an HP Slimline 450-120KL SFF desktop. HP P/N is listed as 793073-001, if that's of any importance to anyone.

Case pictures shown below… as you can see, there's not much to this PSU. All it has is a 24-pin ATX connector, a 4-pin 12V CPU connector, one regular SATA power connector, and one mini-SATA 5V-only power connector for the optical drive in the system. All wires are 20 AWG, except the 3.3V rail + signal wires on the ATX connector and the mini-SATA 5V-only, – these are 24 AWG.



Next, let's look at the label. The PSU is only rated for 180 Watts of power, which isn't a whole lot. 5V and 3.3V rail are rated quite low at 10A and 7A respectively… and 70 Watts total combined. But note the rating for the 12V rail: it's stated to do up to 15 Amps, which is 180 Watts alone. This suggests the PSU can output all of its rated power on the 12V rail… so definitely not a “retro PC” unit. It's also 80 Plus Bronze and full-range input (meaning it has APFC.)


Anyways, let's have a look inside.


Seems almost gutless for 180 Watts… but in reality, it's just a modern and efficient PSU, so it doesn't need very big components for such output power. Also, it's a Delta after all. So I doubt anything on the label would be a lie. PCB model says DPS-180AP-20.

In the above picture, the lower-right quadrant contains the input filtering (2x CM chokes, 1x AC wires ring choke, 1x 0.1 uF X2 cap, 1x 0.22 X2 cap, 4x 1.0 nF Y2 caps, and 2x 1.5 nF Y2 caps), APFC booster coil (note blue HF core material), and 5VSB supply.
In the upper-right quadrant is the bridge rectifier (GBU408), main filter cap (450V, 120 uF), and main transformer (size 28). Here's a better picture of these:


Going back to the picture before the last one again… left side of the PSU board has, from top to bottom: secondary heatsink with rectifiers, output toroid filter, and output caps. Here are two alternate shots:



Next, an up-close picture of the secondary side heatsink + rectifiers (2x STPS20L60CT in parallel for 12V rail and 1x STPS40L45CT for the 5V rail):


And here is the output side:

12V rail is filtered with 2x 2200 uF caps (without a PI coil in between them) and 5V rail with 1x 1500 uF + 1x 1000 uF caps (with a 6.5-turn, 3mm core PI coil). The 3.3V rail is a little more special – it is DC-DC –generated from the 12V rail. On the input, it has a CapXon PL series 16V 470 uF cap connected to the 12V rail via. a PI coil (same type as the 5V rail one.) On the output, it has 1x 1000 uF + 1x 1500 uF caps. The 5VSB has 1x 2200 uF and 1x 680 uF caps with a PI coil in between.
By the way, note again the blue core of the output toroid. Not sure what it is, but I guess the standard -26 and -52 material cores from Micrometals are not a thing anymore. Only the black core toroid (L303) for the 3.3V DC-DC supply is something I know – Micrometals -45 (all black.)

On the bottom is a daughterboard that runs between the primary and secondary, and contains all of the control ICs. PWM + APFC IC is CM6802 and the supervisor is an Infinno iN1T406-ddg (?). 5VSB is generated from a TNY286pg.



Here is also a picture of the solder-side of the PSU PCB:

This one shows the 3.3V rail DC-DC single-phase PWM controller is an ST L6726A.

And finally, a picture of the fan – a 50 mm Yate Loon D50SH-12C, rated for 0.27 Amps at 12V.


That concludes it all for this PSU.
I did a partial recap on it, just to make it a little more reliable. The HP Slimline 450-120KL it belongs to is for my mother to use as a desktop PC at home. So it has to be a little more trouble-free, if that's possible.


Here's how the recap went:
5VSB: 1x Ltec LZG 10V, 2200 uF --> 1x UCC KY 10V, 2200 uF
3.3V: 1x Ltec LZG 10V, 1000 uF --> 1x Rubycon ZLQ 6.3V, 1200 uF
As you may have noticed, I don't trust Ltec too much. In Delta PSUs where they're used interchangeably with Taicon, I found Taicon rarely failed. Ltec and CapXon – almost always.
Anyways, everything else was left the same as it was. When I get more proper caps, I'll do the rest. Probably very high on that list is the primary cap (Ltec TY, 450V, 120 uF) since I'm sure the APFC stresses it a good amount. I have some Nichicon PT with the same voltage and capacitance from bad Nichicon-made PS3 PSUs. It would be a good fit, I think. Since there is space in there, I'll probably even try jamming in a parallel polypropylene cap as well.

Lastly, a list of detailed component summary shown below:

Primary Side:
* Input Filtering: 2x CM chokes, 1x AC wires ring choke, 1x 0.1 uF + 1x 0.22 uF X2-class caps, 4x 1.0 nF + 2x 1.5 nF Y2-class caps.
* Input protection: T5A250V fuse, 2x spark gaps on CM choke sides
* GBU408 bridge rectifier,
* 1 uF 450V film cap before APFC stage
* main filter cap: 1x Ltec TY, 450V, 120 uF, 18x42 mm, 105°C
* 5VSB startup cap: 1x Taicon PW, 50V, 220 uF, 8x20 mm
* APFC silicon: 1x 13N60M2 MOSFETs (TO-220FP) + 1x STTH8R06fp diode (TO-220FP)
* main PS (2-transistor forward config): 2x K10A60dr MOSFETs (TO-220FP)
* EEL/ERL 28 main transformer + EE19 transformer for 5VSB

ICs:
* APFC + main PS PWM: CM6802
* supervisor: Infinno iN1T406-ddg (?)
* 5VSB off-line PWM-FET: TNY286pg
* 3.3V rail DC-DC PWM (single phase) controller: ST L6726A

Secondary Side:
* 5VSB
*** 1x Ltec LZG, 10V, 2200 uF, 10x20 mm before PI coil
*** 1x Taicon PW, 10V, 680 uF, 8 x 15 mm after PI coil
*** PI coil: 10-turn, 3 mm core, 20-22 AWG wire
*** 3-5A (?) schottky diode for rectification

* 12V Rail
*** 2x United Chemicon KZE, 16V, 2200 uF, 10x20 mm, no PI coil
*** 2x STPS20L60ct (TO-220) schottky rectifiers in parallel

* 5V Rail
*** 1x Taicon HH, 10V, 1500 uF, 10x16 mm before PI coil
*** 1x Ltec LZG, 10V, 1000 uF, 8x20 mm after PI coil
*** PI coil: 6.5-turns, 3 mm core, 18 AWG wire
*** 1x STPS40L45ct (TO-220) schottky rectifier

* 3.3V Rail (DC-DC regulated from 12V rail)
*** 1x CapXon PL, 16V, 470 uF, 10 mm dia., connected to 12V rail via PI coil with 6.5-turns, 3 mm core, 18 AWG wire
*** 1x FDD8896 MOSFET (TO-252) on high-side and 1x D514 GA5C2C MOSFET (TO-252) on low-side
*** 1x Ltec LZG, 10V, 1000 uF, 8x20 mm + 1x Taicon HH, 10V, 1500 uF, 8x20 mm
*** Micrometals -45 material toroid

* -12V Rail
NONE – this PSU does not have a -12V rail.

Wiring:
* 600V, 20 AWG input wiring, except ground (18 AWG)
* 300V, 20 AWG output wiring, except 3.3V and signal wires on ATX connector + ODD SATA 5V-only connector (24 AWG)
* Output connectors: 24-pin ATX, 4-pin 12V CPU, 1x SATA, 1x mini-SATA 5V-only (for ODDs).

[Dan81]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

It will be good for 200W continuous. Again, that's a 28 size transformer you have there, not a 35 and not a 33 either. I've actually desoldered one of those fake 35 labeled size 28 trafos from an Allied rated a bit higher than yours by quite a lot ("400W", my ass!) and it did indeed read "ERL-28-2005 XF". Not sure what the XF meant.

[leotron]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

Looks like a filled up Deer (full input filter and nothing seems to be omitted). If you fully recap this L&C/Deer (upgrade the primary caps to at least 470u for 250W if you have any laying around). Even if this has a 35 size transformer, the somewhat scrawny heatsinks themselves, the classic half-bridge design, and the single 80mm fan will limit this supply at 250W continuous.

Thanks for the answers, so its a realiable PSU so long 200~250w power consumption? Or it it's better to buy a generic 500w psu anyways? I was very curious because the main filter, and the other horizontal circuit, also kinda heavy.

thx for the patience

[Dan81]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

200W.

I'll say this as long as necessary - don't be fooled about the ERL-35-2005 labeling and the transformer shape - that is a rounded ERL-28 transformer which Deer uses to fool people into thinking they have an actual 35 sized transformer. If you have trained eyes, you'll easily notice the rather big free space inbetween the main transformer and the one close to it. An actual 35 size trafo WILL FILL that space.

Also it doesn't surprise me it's Allied who does that. They've been doing this absolute BS of using rounded 28 size trafos for almost as long as I could encounter. The only Allieds I've seen that actually had real 35 sized transformers were usually either Modecom FEEL-III units and some of Thermaltake's Litepower units that were subcontracted to Solytech (not all Litepowers were Deers, by the way.)

[pc7fan]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

hello badcaps i was selling for a scrap a few psu and noticed one that was heavy, hmm i said, i opened up and i found a surprise, looks like a second brand from a psu manufacturer maybe? what do you think?

Looks like a filled up Deer (full input filter and nothing seems to be omitted). If you fully recap this L&C/Deer (upgrade the primary caps to at least 470u for 250W if you have any laying around). Even if this has a 35 size transformer, the somewhat scrawny heatsinks themselves, the classic half-bridge design, and the single 80mm fan will limit this supply at 250W continuous.

[leotron]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

hello badcaps i was selling for a scrap a few psu and noticed one that was heavy, hmm i said, i opened up and i found a surprise, looks like a second brand from a psu manufacturer maybe? what do you think?

[Dan81]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

Welp, the Sun Pro got scrapped. 5vSB had an issue where it would constantly tick, despite being recapped.

Instead, I've taken my time to open up an unit I wanted to work on for quite some time. Rhis is a "HKC" SZ-430PDR unit.

I'd guesstimate 300W continuous and 350 peak? Main switchers are D304X, main transformer is ERL35 and the drivers look beefy enough. A recap is in order of course (I have saved some Rubycon and Panasonics) although the primaries will stay (IIRC I got those out of a beefy Rasurbo unit that had bigger issues with the secondary side)

Also has PFC coil (and it's real!) and a Shenzen Xin Wang Electronic fan (which I'll probably replace with a Young Lin/ Recom branded fan). Mains filtering was redone by me (unsurprising since the original positions are done by a bunch of monkeys) and the 2200uF Jun Fu on the secondary is also my work (the only 2200uF 16v cap I had on my hands..) but otherwise the rest is as bone stock as possible (except the fan which I had it from a scrapped RPC unit that was so gutless I wouldn't have trusted it near anything ATX.)

[Dan81]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

400W? No. The heatsinks might be good for 300W, but that main transformer and 470uF input caps put the practical continuous power in the 250W range, IMO.

That's a 35 sized transformer though (not the puny 33 that most Deer/L&C usually ship with), so apart from the main caps, I'd put it at 280W continuous and 300 peak. Maybe 300 continuous if I could bump up the main caps (and if I had an ESR meter to check if some 680uF primaries I found would suit it)

But considering that the machine itself barely hits 250W probably (1x HDD, 1x DVD drive, FX5200 AGP, LAN, TV Tuner and a 1.6GHz Duron), I don't really think I have to tinker with it further than installing it back in the case and using it.

And 400W... yeah, that's a no from me too.

300-350W with upgraded primaries, since the sillicon seems up to it, and I trust the 35 size transformer to do so too.

(double checked and it indeed IS a real 35 sized trafo, unlike Allied's stupid practice of masking a rounded 28 sized trafo as 35 size - yes, some of the newer units they were making (some Rosewills being good examples) had a rounded 28 transformer passing as 35. Only upon noticing there was too much free space between the main transformer and the one next to it, (and comparing to a real 35 I have from another Deer, marked LT535-something + ERL-35ASH) I found out it's a 28. Talk about saving a penny, as the sillicon and othrr parts were way overkill for that 28.)

Anyways, I might post up a Sun Pro/Leadman next. Doesn't look too bad to me IMO, but the driving transformers are small compared to the main transformer (which for whatever reason, Sun Pro decided to slap an actual EI-40 transformer out of the blue ). Gotta see if it passes the startup blow test, though last time I took it out of the case, the only things wrong with it were bulging 5vsB and secondary caps, nothing else looked shorted.

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

400W? No. The heatsinks might be good for 300W, but that main transformer and 470uF input caps put the practical continuous power in the 250W range, IMO.