Could use some psu help

[junktv]

Re: Could use some psu help

Thanks, momaka. I really do appreciate yall helping me.

I found a link on these with a mod. Seemed reasonable so ground a tiny bit to drill holes so i could move c36 (i think) the 2200uf 10v over on the trace away from the heatsink.

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...ec+ATX-250+12Z


I am going to replace a bunch of mother board kzg caps that are blown with nichicon HM. I noticed my other motherboard is full of HM other than a couple sanyo and runs like a top. The board that needs fixed has a couple OST RLG and a RLX. Think HM will work there also? Sorry for tossing that in there.

[stj]

Re: Could use some psu help

HM may be too low esr

[junktv]

Re: Could use some psu help

HM may be too low esr

For a p4sd-la motherboard? Ah i dunno i'll keep that in it's place and out of here. This thread already got moved. If it helps others and that mod works it will be another confirmation.

[stj]

Re: Could use some psu help

my mistake, i thought you wanted to put them in a psu.

[momaka]

Re: Could use some psu help

The board that needs fixed has a couple OST RLG and a RLX. Think HM will work there also?

Yes.
The P4SD series motherboards are generally well-designed. I've done a full poly-mod on the P4SD motherboards from HP DC5000 / D530 machines and it works great too.

[junktv]

Re: Could use some psu help

I've been looking at caps for the power supplies and you guys have given too many options and all have a wide range of ripple and impedance. Atleast the jamicon tk seem like general caps that say high temp high reliability. I've read that adding too low of esr and impedance can be bad in power supply. All of the FR and i think FM, FK and fc are lower impedance than say PW. The nice part is some are smaller and closer to the dimensions of the TK that are in the bestec and jee in the ultra in some cases. Would these be low enough esr and impedance to cause a problem?

[junktv]

Re: Could use some psu help

Am I too worried about esr and impedance on these power supplies? Hate to wake up fried like a piece of bacon.

[stj]

Re: Could use some psu help

i have used FC and FK loads of times - no problem.
only done a couple with FR - being newer.
still no issues seen.

if it works when you power it up - it will stay working - no need to worry about later.

[junktv]

Re: Could use some psu help

Good to hear on the FC because i had 2 2.2uf 50v from something else left over.

Just seen so much variation from the huge list you guys gave that i started reading more. Then ran by that impedance esr thing. I know they aren't all designed the same so figured i'd check for these 2 power supply's.

They both worked when i took them apart with the bestec having a 5vsb problem. The ultra will be on a motherboard and cpu I like.


Not sure how you guys look at data sheets, digikey list and spread sheet for hours and hours.

[momaka]

Re: Could use some psu help

I've been looking at caps for the power supplies and you guys have given too many options and all have a wide range of ripple and impedance. Atleast the jamicon tk seem like general caps that say high temp high reliability. I've read that adding too low of esr and impedance can be bad in power supply.

It *can* be bad, but it won't be catastrophic. Sorry, no explosions (that's only material for an 80's action movie ). All that very low ESR caps can do is cause some PSUs to output a bit more ripple ripple than with their stock caps (when they were still okay). Or at worst, you may get oscillations and the PSU won't start. But I know only one PSU manufacturer that makes such picky PSUs: Sirtech (especially the High Power platform based on h-bridge designs). Every other PSU I have worked on has had NO problems with very low ESR caps (sometimes even motherboard grade caps when I felt like experimenting).

Would these be low enough esr and impedance to cause a problem?

For the Ultra PSU, I don't know as I haven't worked on one before and don't know who made it.

But for the Bestec, pretty much anything in that list I put above will be fine. In fact, I even used a few Nichicon HN and HZ in a Bestec ATX-300 12Z when I ran out of caps. That aside, I also have a recapped Bestec ATX-250-12Z Rev-D2R, which I did with a wide mix of cap brands and series (basically whatever I had on hand). In particular, I used 6.3V 2200 uF Panasonic FM for the 3.3V rail, 10V 2200 uF Chemicon KY for the 5V rail, and one 16V 2200 uF Panasonic FC + one 16V 1500 uF Panasonic FL or the 12V rail. Don't remember what I used for the other rails. That said, here is a cap diagram I did based on my recapped Bestec PSU:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...1&d=1471119216
That big cap at the top is the 16V 2200 uF Panasonic FC, which is 12.5 mm in diamater. I managed to fit it in, despite the board being marked only for a 10 mm cap. If I remember correctly, though, I did have to remove the self-loading circuit on the -12V rail for that cap to fit (the self-loading circuit on the -12V rail consists of a transistor, a large resistor, and several smaller SMD resistors and a zener... but you only need to remove the transistor and large resistor, or you can move them someplace else in the PSU with long wires).

Good to hear on the FC because i had 2 2.2uf 50v from something else left over.

For caps under 100 uF, I usually don't even worry if they are low ESR or not. I just make sure they are rated for 105°C. (Of course, I do try to get low-ESR caps even for the small ones, since it's usually cheaper and they can handle more ripple current.)

[junktv]

Re: Could use some psu help

Thanks for the info on why. I know from reading reviews high ripple is bad. How I understand it, it's like distortion in speakers. So low impedance is low esr or only those that say low esr?

Looks like the ultra is made by wintech since UL is E178768.

Seen that pic and the thread but some of the caps mentioned i think were ZL which i don't see on the list at digikey. What do you think about moving the c36 2200uf 10v up the rail and away from the heat sink mod? https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...ec+ATX-250+12Z


HZ is one i picked for the motherboard the bestec runs. It's in the asus section with a pic of the list and what goes where and notes. www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=57191

Thanks for explaining more.

[momaka]

Re: Could use some psu help

I know from reading reviews high ripple is bad. How I understand it, it's like distortion in speakers.

Ripple and noise simply indicates the instability/ small deviation in a DC voltage (i.e. a 5V line can become 5.01V one instant and then 4.99V the next, and so on.). The higher the ripple/noise, the bigger the deviations will be from the DC voltage.

In computers, this matters, because they communicate with 1s and 0s. In the physical circuit of a computer, this is represented by a presence of a voltage (1) and lack of voltage (0). When you have too much ripple/noise, however, the voltage to the chip can become unstable enough that the chip sends out a 0 instead of a 1 (perhaps due to a drop in line voltage) or send a 1 instead of a 0, if a spike from the ripple/noise voltage goes too high.

Anyways, that said, low ESR caps won't cause excessive ripple/noise in most PSUs. They *may* just cause a tad bit more noise than when the PSU had the original caps (before they failed). So you need not worry about the cap impedance/ESR that much. I have seen (and sometimes even used) just about every capacitor in that list above in various power supplies.

So low impedance is low esr or only those that say low esr?

At relatively high circuit frequencies (typically in the tens to hundreds of KHz range), the impedance value of a capacitor becomes nearly equal to the ESR value. So for all practical purposes, we can say that ESR = impedance at high frequency. Hence why you see people here sometimes use the terms interchangeably.

Looks like the ultra is made by wintech since UL is E178768.

I have no experience with Wintech PSUs. But it's not Sirtech, so I don't think you'll have any problems. If you really want to play it safe, use these caps and series:
Panasonic FC
Chemicon KY, LXZ, LXV, LXY
Nichicon PW, PS, PM, PJ, HE
Rubycon YXJ, YXG

Most of these are from the "oldschool" low ESR era. So they are pretty safe for PSU use.

Seen that pic and the thread but some of the caps mentioned i think were ZL which i don't see on the list at digikey.

ZL is a straight equivalent to Chemicon KZE and Nichicon HD

What do you think about moving the c36 2200uf 10v up the rail and away from the heat sink mod? https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...ec+ATX-250+12Z

It's a good trick to keep that capacitor cool. But even if you don't move your new cap in that spot, the PSU should still last a long time. The main problem behind that cap cooking is because Bestec used crappy caps. And the conductive brown glue. In fact, I think you should more about removing the conductive brown glue first. It's a PITA on some of these older Bestec power supplies. (However, still worth the effort, IMO, as Bestec PSUs are designed well otherwise and will handle the state power on their label with no problem).

HZ is one i picked for the motherboard the bestec runs. It's in the asus section with a pic of the list and what goes where and notes. www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=57191

Alright I'll have a look in there in a bit.
HZ is fine, as should be HN and HM.

[junktv]

Re: Could use some psu help

Huge thanks. Ill get the rest of my list together this weekend and with any luck with know if it works or sparks next weekend.

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Could use some psu help

Given the age of the PSU, I'd go with Nichicon PW, Panasonic FC, or United Chemicon LXZ. They should be available from Digikey or another distie. As "plan B", Nichicon PA (no 50V parts in this series) or HE, Panasonic FM, Rubycon ZL, or UCC KY or KZE are lower impedance, but not too extreme, and all are 5000-10000 hour series (similar to PW, FC, and LXZ). I don't have anything against Rubycon, but I don't know if they have a series that is equivalent impedance to the PW, et al.

[momaka]

Re: Could use some psu help

I don't have anything against Rubycon, but I don't know if they have a series that is equivalent impedance to the PW, et al.

YXJ series. According to Digikey/Rubycon, YXJ is the updated version of YXF.
(See this: http://www.digikey.com/en/product-hi...ies-capacitors)

So YXJ is equivalent to Panasonic FC and Nichicon PW/PJ/PS/PM, more or less.

I keep trying to update the above list I made, but new series do come out now and then. Looking through my datasheets, I just noticed that Nichicon (U)PA seems like another choice. According to Nichicon PA spec sheet, PA is a slightly lower impedance version of PW.

[stj]

Re: Could use some psu help

i use YXJ for 1uf and 2.2uf because Panasonic dont make caps now below 4.7uf

[junktv]

Re: Could use some psu help

Looks like the 0.1uf 63v 5ma ripple 105c are impossible to find replacements for so thinking leave them.

Has 4ma ripple but 85c.
https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...8-1-ND/5728705

Higher temp but 1.3ma ripple.
https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...2-1-ND/5728905


For the rest of the smaller ones PW seems to work.


Looks like KYB are the closest to the 10x25mm 2200uf 16v I can find. Is a zls and zlq that might work but being z are low esr I think. The ZLQ is closer to current size.
http://www.digikey.com/product-searc...0&pageSize=500


Still trying to decide on the 2200uf 10v 10x20mm. Size is much taller on most which might be an issue as the wires would have to go up over them then come down to exit the case. YXJ looks like a good match at 10x22mm.

http://www.digikey.com/product-searc...0&pageSize=500

Since there is no way of knowing what series the jee are in the ultra and some do say low esr i'm thinking FR's for it on the larger sizes.

[stj]

Re: Could use some psu help

.1uf 63v - maybe use a film cap like polyester or polypropylene

[junktv]

Re: Could use some psu help

Well I changed it up a little on the power supplies. Does this look like it will work? Wondering if the UCC KY's will be low ESR enough for the 2 2200uf 10v jee's on the ultra.

[momaka]

Re: Could use some psu help

The JEE may say low ESR on them, but they are probably barely better than general purpose caps. Regardless, Chemicon KY would be fine. I never had a PSU reject those.

Also, for caps under 1 uF, you can easily find polyester/polypropylene/metal film cap replacements. Here are two suggestions for the 0.1 uF and 0.22 uF caps:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...863-ND/2571298
http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...686-ND/3724604