Recapping of Corsair VS450

[Wester547]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

For people I usualy meet, high freqency is 1 MHz, more like 10 MHz. Definitelly not 20-100 kHz we have in SMPS.

It very well depends on the design, but for usual SMPS, 60 kHz, capacity is more important than ESR (as long as you have *some* kind of low-ESR). Only if you want to filter HF (1 MHz) ripple (harmonics), than you need ultra-low. Polymers are used these days, no wet lytic is close enough. Seems like really you are just making up whatever you can to keep pushing the KZE…whatever, I'll use cheaper caps *and* better caps.

Not making up anything, and there's nothing wrong with KZE so long as you use them right. There is a reason why the ripple voltage goes out of spec when the ESR of capacitors sky rockets on the output filter of a SMPS (though it depends on what the feedback loop can tolerate as well, don't want to go too low either, and it also depends if the magamp circuit is used or if it's a synchronous buck DC-DC converter, etc...). Not like that would happen if the capacitance dropped but the ESR remained within spec. Not saying that capacitance isn't imperative as it helps with transients and does play a bit of a part in smoothing the 120Hz noise on the output that the input lytics miss (though for that to make a tangible difference you would need some earnest capacitance, but ferrite coils in the output filter help with such spikes as well). For low ripple frequencies like 120Hz (IE the input side), capacitance and ripple current becomes more of an issue. At frequences like 50-100KHz, ESR dominates. At frequences above 200KHz, inductance becomes more of a dominating factor.

I don't ever recall seeing Panasonics being a stock choice on the output side of a SMPS for any of the major brands, only the input.

[stj]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

older industrial supplys from company's like Delta and Sony often have panasonics in them.

[Behemot]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

They are always more expensive AND they have huge MOQs. Sometimes they may be cheaper in retail than other comparable brands but the reason is that particular reseller just takes milions of Pannies and only a fraction of that other brand.

I almost don't see them in the kind of electronics I use or review, Chemi-Con is absolutelly prevalent, sometimes Rubycon, Hitachi for primaries. Why do you think is that? Occams razor - they have frelled pricing&order quantity policy.

[stj]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

different countrys - different prices.

[Behemot]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

Which are even more expensive, lmao

[stj]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

look at the length of this thread,
you see what happens when you dont just use Panasonic!

[Behemot]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

For people I usualy meet, high freqency is 1 MHz, more like 10 MHz. Definitelly not 20-100 kHz we have in SMPS.

It very well depends on the design, but for usual SMPS, 60 kHz, capacity is more important than ESR (as long as you have *some* kind of low-ESR). Only if you want to filter HF (1 MHz) ripple (harmonics), than you need ultra-low. Polymers are used these days, no wet lytic is close enough. Seems like really you are just making up whatever you can to keep pushing the KZE…whatever, I'll use cheaper caps *and* better caps.

[Wester547]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

It is very interesting you say that. How could you only know that? Oh I know. By pulling outta your ass? Try learning the facts first, than try again. I don't give a damn how do they call it, as long as it has far superior lifetime with almost the same ESR…and the fact is the ESR is about 15 % higher (maybe more, maybe not) than of the KY. Considering the fact usually nobody really cares if these small, 1-47uF caps are ultra-low ESR or just LXY-grade low-ESR, they are better choice.

There is no need to resort to derogatory name calling.

The actual datasheet at Digikey shows them to have a low ripple rating and does not mention the ESR rating. Usually, the only datasheets that emit the ESR (or impedance) rating are for those series that aren't low ESR (although UCC's datasheets, not NCC's, do actually mention the ESR rating for GP capacitors at 120Hz). Of course, there are always exceptions, and LE may as well be one of them - in fact, it more than likely is, since it's rated at 100KHz vs. most GP capacitors which are rated at 120Hz. LE is a direct cross to YXM, and that datasheet too omits the ESR rating (although it too is rated at 100KHz). I know you noticed that too, that's why you inquired Chemi-con about it. And 100uF 50V 8x11.5mm KY has a ripple rating of 555 milliamps, over twice than that of 100uF 50V 8x11.5mm LE (270 milliamps), although 3.3uF 50V LE (5x11mm) actually has a higher ripple rating than 3.3uF 50V KY (5x11mm), 70 milliamps vs. 53 respectively. The LE series does not come in case sizes higher than 8x11.5mm which really doesn't make it suitable for low ESR applications, at least not for those demanding.

You somehow forgot I said they have not only poor capacity per volume these days, BUT ALSO shorter lifetime. These two combined make it really useless these days. Now just tell me how it is actually OK to replace the original failed cap with one having half the capacity…

ESR is more critical than capacitance in high frequency circuits.

[Behemot]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

It is very interesting you say that. How could you only know that? Oh I know. By pulling outta your ass? Try learning the facts first, than try again. I don't give a damn how do they call it, as long as it has far superior lifetime with almost the same ESR…and the fact is the ESR is about 15 % higher (maybe more, maybe not) than of the KY. Considering the fact usually nobody really cares if these small, 1-47uF caps are ultra-low ESR or just LXY-grade low-ESR, they are better choice.

OFC there will always be somebody ranting he wants something else than I got. But as long as I am not selling thousands of these tiny caps annually, I won't source different series with the same capacity/voltage spec next to each other.

KZM may be problematic because they have very low ESR, KZH still not so. But in time when very old devices used with higher-ESR caps die out, I'll replace them as well. What's the advantage of KZE here once again, that I can only get 1200/6.3 in D8x20 instead of 1500/6.3? 680/16 instead of 1000? 680/25 instead of 1000/25? You somehow forgot I said they have not only poor capacity per volume these days, BUT ALSO shorter lifetime. These two combined make it really useless these days. Now just tell me how it is actually OK to replace the original failed cap with one having half the capacity…

[Wester547]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

As an addendum and a correction, I meant 1,000-4,000 hours as far as the difference between KZH and KZM goes. And Chemi-con does call KZE a "long life" series in their catalog even if one could chalk that up to marketing. Also, LE isn't a low ESR series (at least not by comparison to the other series you mentioned).

[Behemot]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

OFC that KZH are worse than KZM so in future upgrades, they are the first ones to go out of my offer. But first some decent small caps (I'll go for 10000 hours rated LE soon instead of all those LXY, LXZ and after that all those KY, it has only a "hair" worse ESR so that does not matter, does it).

I am not aware of any such stress test, would be good to at least point to that when you mention that, otherwise it's like it never happened. I only know about that ultra-low ESR caps test which ended long before any of the caps failed, IIRC.

[Wester547]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

What the hell are you talking about, really? Have you actually seen the datasheet lately? Can you show me those 5000 hours?

Oh, you surely mean this!

"KZH up to 6,000 hours, KZE 5,000." That means up to, not only for 5,000. Of course case size directly affects lifetime. The datasheets make that very clear. Also, those endurance ratings are only made with 60% confidence. Yes, I know you're of the opinion that KY is only "just obsolete" because of the high endurance rating. KY is indeed an upgraded series. When KY first went into production (early 2001), it was only rated up to 6,000 hours (datasheet attached), and was later upgraded to 10,000 (in April 2002 in accordance to an old record of NCC's site on the web archive).

Yeah, D12.5+, those which are used by the rate of 1-2 % in most ATX power supplies, very relevant indeed! And for your information, I am just looking into Corsair HX750i and I see four D12.5 caps there…KZH (instead they put 10mm KZE on the SB rail, a stupid choice)

Not sure how that's stupid exactly. KZE is only a hair below KZH in terms of ripple current handling ability and a hair above it in terms of ESR. And they both have the same 500 hour @ 105*C shelf life spec. In fact, the Chemi-con series you sell (KZx, KYx) all share that spec. KZE is not a prematurely failing series, not in any sense of the word. What you reference in the datasheets is only numbers and there's no evidence to support the notion that KZH would last that much longer than KZE in the real world. And as I said before.... KZH did significantly worse than KZE in Petes in CA's torture tests. So that does not make KZE a stupid choice at all. By that thinking, using KZH instead of KZM is stupid because KZM is rated for 3,000-4,000 hours more.

Otherwise there is nothing good about using them so from me, they are not getting the best recommendation. Yeah, KZE with 4k hours is still better than most of the chinese crap on market, but still, there are bloody 8-10k caps on the market for years now.

The endurance ratings are good information, but they don't decide everything. The defective 2,000 hour @ 105*C KZGs are often outlasted by 2,000 hour @ 85*C SMGs even in storage.... because the stability of the electrolytic composition matters more.

Indeed, but your definition of obsolete is strange, not mine. When it is clearly sure something is worse in most of the aspects, than it is clearly obsolete for me. Your definition is like "when single person in the whole universe is still using it, than it is not obsolete". Duh

I said when enough people are using them in their repairs. That means more than a single person.

[Behemot]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

What the hell are you talking about, really? Have you actually seen the datasheet lately? Can you show me those 5000 hours?

F5 & F6.3 : 2000hours F8 : 3000hours F10 : 4000hours

Oh, you surely mean this!

F12.5 & F16 : 5000hours

Yeah, D12.5+, those which are used by the rate of 1-2 % in most ATX power supplies, very relevant indeed! And for your information, I am just looking into Corsair HX750i and I see four D12.5 caps there…KZH (instead they put 10mm KZE on the SB rail, a stupid choice)

Manufacturers use them by the "save cent on piece, save 10000 bucks on the whole batch" logic combined with "is it japanese cap? it is, so we will make all those 'japanese caps are a must!' guys happy and get good reviews". Otherwise there is nothing good about using them so from me, they are not getting the best recommendation. Yeah, KZE with 4k hours is still better than most of the chinese crap on market, but still, there are bloody 8-10k caps on the market for years now.

Indeed, but your definition of obsolete is strange, not mine. When it is clearly sure something is worse in most of the aspects, than it is clearly obsolete for me. Your definition is like "when single person in the whole universe is still using it, than it is not obsolete". Duh

[Wester547]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

Sorry for the necropost, but I just realized this thread didn't end with kc8adu's last post so I felt the need to reply.

KZE has been also upgraded, but it makes no difference, it is still huge for the poor capacity and the lifetimes are very short! Compared to the capacity, there is no reason to buy them new.

I wouldn't deem 5,000 hours short. And KZE actually did much better than KZH in Pete's torture tests, even though KZH is rated up to 6,000 hours and KZE 5,000. The endurance tests are not reflective of useful life and are not the be all or end all of capacitor lifetimes.

Most of the new series provide not only much better capacity per volume (=smaller cans, or better capacity in the same size), but also longer lifetimes, lower ESR and higher currents. KY is the only exception which may still be worth, I said they are only obsolete, not utterly obsolete Besides, many of those old caps series are custom sizes, we have no idea what their parameters are (most likely better, I would even go as far as saying some of the new series have been made in the image of those custom sizes).

Yes, the manufacturing process of the top tier brands has ameliorated over time, so even older series can manage "upgrades" in terms of case sizes. Custom orders are a big part of UCC's production anyway.

The LX* series have single advantage - as they have oil-based electrolyte, they can be used at some specific conditions. For our usage, it does not matter at all. Just recently I got new KZN 100/35 over old LXZ 100/35. The KZN is about 3 times better in all main parameters, smaller and I got them for half the price.

No, not really. There's nothing "oil-based" about it. The LX* series is of the variety that employs organic solvents (gamma butyrolactone, ethlyene glycol, glycerol, dipropyl ketone, etc...) and weak acid or ammonium salt based solutions (butyric acid, lactic acid, boric acid, tertiary acid or ammonium salt, carboxylic acid, acetic acid, etc) for the electrolyte, with the H2O content amounting to only 1-2% by weight (very small compared to capacitors employing regular solvents and liquids which vary from 5%-20% and aqueous solutions which can be anywhere from 30%-70%).

Manufacturer price difference is only about 5 % between all these series. The end price difference is given by you letting yourself get robbed from all those big-ass resellers. I have these modern series much cheaper than they got. Lets compare two comparable ones:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...1488-ND/756004

vs. my KZH 1200/6.3. KZH are 5 mm shorter, have the same lifetime, lower impedance and higher ripple current. My cost about 16 US cents, Digikey wants 41 US cents for KY. Did I hear somebody saying *bang for your buck*? Yeah, that bang, in your face maybe.

By "bang for buck" I meant that at a time at least, KY was much cheaper than LXZ, because KY was cheaper to produce, because of the comparatively H2O-base electrolyte.

To be clear, I said nothing about those old caps being bad. But they are clearly worse while there are better alternatives for the same or lower price. Because it costs the same to make most of the caps no matter what they are, there is absolutelly no reason why the old should be cheaper than being on sell-out. I can see no better definition of obsolete than the ability to get better thing cheaper, when deciding what to buy. I said nothing about replacing them in already existing devices, just to get the better stuff when you are already on shopping spree!!

Well, it all depends upon your definition of "obsolete". It may be obsolete for you but if they're still available (check), if PSU manufacturers are still using them (check), and if enough people are still using them in their repairs (check), I don't see how they're obsoleted, especially if the manufacturer hasn't said so as yet, which was stated before me...

[Stefan Payne]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

I bet some of the old series will be discontinued soon.

Why should they?
Especially if they are 'proven reliable designs'.

There are designs out there where you do not need low impedance capacitors, the specs KZE and KY deliver are just enough for them...

If NCC is able to manufacture them cheap enough, why should they be discontinued?
Especially since they are used in a variety of products that need 'Long term Support'!
Yes, they are products that come out now that will be sold for at least 5 years or even more, without any dramatic changes at all...

Like osciloscopes and other lab stuff for example.
Or DIN rail power supplys...

And the best things:
The enviroment isn't as hostile as it is with PC power supplys as you know exactly what that power supply has to supply and you can design the PSU accordingly...

So there isn't a need to discontinue them. Especially as NCC has no alternative to the KY series. Especially if size isn't an issue at all!

Like here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb9P1Am9aFU (11:45)...

Oh and I recommend some videos from "Eli the computer guy" on youtube, they are really interesting. And have some kind of soothing or pacifying effect

[Behemot]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

KZH isn't exactly new. It's been in production for well over a decade and its oldest datasheet is dated October 2003.

If those series were really obsolete, I think UCC would discontinue them, even if they were slow to discontinue some other series. And there's no better bang for your buck than NCC KY. Not everything old is obsolete, and not everything new is relevant.

The KZH series has been upgraded though. I bet some of the old series will be discontinued soon. KZE has been also upgraded, but it makes no difference, it is still huge for the poor capacity and the lifetimes are very short! Compared to the capacity, there is no reason to buy them new.

Most of the new series provide not only much better capacity per volume (=smaller cans, or better capacity in the same size), but also longer lifetimes, lower ESR and higher currents. KY is the only exception which may still be worth, I said they are only obsolete, not utterly obsolete Besides, many of those old caps series are custom sizes, we have no idea what their parameters are (most likely better, I would even go as far as saying some of the new series have been made in the image of those custom sizes).

The LX* series have single advantage - as they have oil-based electrolyte, they can be used at some specific conditions. For our usage, it does not matter at all. Just recently I got new KZN 100/35 over old LXZ 100/35. The KZN is about 3 times better in all main parameters, smaller and I got them for half the price.

Manufacturer price difference is only about 5 % between all these series. The end price difference is given by you letting yourself get robbed from all those big-ass resellers. I have these modern series much cheaper than they got. Lets compare two comparable ones:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...1488-ND/756004

vs. my KZH 1200/6.3. KZH are 5 mm shorter, have the same lifetime, lower impedance and higher ripple current. My cost about 16 US cents, Digikey wants 41 US cents for KY. Did I hear somebody saying *bang for your buck*? Yeah, that bang, in your face maybe.

To be clear, I said nothing about those old caps being bad. But they are clearly worse while there are better alternatives for the same or lower price. Because it costs the same to make most of the caps no matter what they are, there is absolutelly no reason why the old should be cheaper than being on sell-out. I can see no better definition of obsolete than the ability to get better thing cheaper, when deciding what to buy. I said nothing about replacing them in already existing devices, just to get the better stuff when you are already on shopping spree!!

[kc8adu]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

but they live a very long time in harsh industrial environments.
which means in a fan cooled pc power supply they will last longer than anyone will care about the pc.
there is a place for these parts still and i can readily order fresh stock.so they are NOT obsolete!

You still live in 2000's.

LXV, LXY, LXZ, KZE are utterly obsolete. KY are just obsolete.

KYA, KYB, KZN, KZM, KZH are the new and worthy series. Rubycon has some new and interesting series as well, but I won't market them till I got them on stock. In the meantime, you guys can stay in last decade for couple more months

[mariushm]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

KZE and KY and other series that Behemot considers obsolete are simply old but reliable, with good time-tested electrolytic formulas.
If the power supply doesn't require lower ESR, higher ripple values, if the diameter is right, there's no reason to go with newer series of capacitors in the power supply.

Behemot, we know you have capacitors to sell, we know you import some of the newest series or stuff that's not so easily available at stores like Farnell or Digikey, but just because there is something better, there's no need to bash older reliable series of capacitors.

They're obsolete when the manufacturer says they're obsolete, not when the biased you says so.

[Stefan Payne]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

You still live in 2000's.

LXV, LXY, LXZ, KZE are utterly obsolete. KY are just obsolete.

Yes and because they are obsolete everyone in the PSU business using (100%) Nippon chemicon capacitors uses them...
KZE is one of the most commonly used capacitors in PSUs, when it's not Teapo SC series...

The KY series also is pretty common too!
You'll find them in every PSU that uses 100% NCC capacitors, like Corsairs HXi and RMx as well as RMi series PSUs, as well as many more...

And yeah, we all live in the 2000s, because the 3000s are over 900 years away...

So in the end:
I think you should be a bit more friendly to people...

You may know: What goes around, comes around.
Don't always be an mean to people...

Oh and just because something is around for a decade or so does NOT mean that it's the same thing!
You may want to look up some datasheets and you may find that some specs change over time...
Like the lifetime of that capacitor gets a bit more...

[Wester547]

Re: Recapping of Corsair VS450

You still live in 2000's.

LXV, LXY, LXZ, KZE are utterly obsolete. KY are just obsolete.

KYA, KYB, KZN, KZM, KZH are the new and worthy series. Rubycon has some new and interesting series as well, but I won't market them till I got them on stock. In the meantime, you guys can stay in last decade for couple more months

KZH isn't exactly new. It's been in production for well over a decade and its oldest datasheet is dated October 2003.

If those series were really obsolete, I think UCC would discontinue them, even if they were slow to discontinue some other series. And there's no better bang for your buck than NCC KY. Not everything old is obsolete, and not everything new is relevant.