not another x-fi problem

[TheDragon]

hi,
been lurking for a short while and reading as much as i could before giving up and joining here and posting my first question today.

I will relate this to bads caps, but please except my apologies if its in the wrong section.
OK. My x-fi had been working OK up until recently (3 years ok). After a general clean up of pc internals which i do every so often my x-fi stopped working. I also used to get pc boot issues every so often and then my psu packed in (was a rubbish ez-cool supplied in case)
replaced with corsair 650tx and that sorted that booting issue. I thought the psu may not be supplying enough juice to the x-fi so thought the newer psu would make it work too. no!
After reading so much on web about x-fi issues I thought i was lucky until now and am looking at the issue of bad caps. My board SB0460 FATILITY contains a mix of mostly Jamicon and some wincap caps.

Question. can bad caps (even though i cannot see obvious buldging signs)
stop the x-fi card from working? It does show in bios as multimedia device (intermittently though) but windows cannot set drivers to it properly. I have been to creative, tomshardware etc forums(2months) with a multitude of software/install solutions and now it comes down to whether its hardware failure, namely caps.
One thing I noticed is that when I insert it back in, initially the pc fails to boot, I have to to take out 2 of 4 memory sticks, set bios to optimize and then pc boots...?!? cannot put memory back whilst creative x-fi is in
what other components could fail relating to to x-fi only that could make it fail. Is it shorting the rest of the system?
The mainboard is a Gigabyte GA-965p-ds3 rev3.3. Been working for years till.....

I tried in an old compaq based pc. Bios picks it up as creative device. Windows xp will not load drivers though...same OS same issue.

my main question is has a capacitor died..could this stop the card from functioning corrrectly..if so which ones should be checked and how? or is it some other component?

I use to do some basic music editing with it and play games, and to me the sound was OK but could be better for music editing. Inlight of recent research I thoight i could do the caps/ops mods, and make it sound better but at the moment I need to get it to work

cannot afford another decent card at the moment which would set me back ateast another £80 or so...fixing would be cheaper option.

Can someone someone shed some light..please

sorry about long post...frusration....

Thanks

[bigbeark]

Re: not another x-fi problem

As someone who has recapped a dozen or so Creative Sound Cards, YES, the caps on your soundcard are very likely to go bad.

In my experience, electrolytic caps on sound cards are physically too small for their capacitance rating. They dry out and the sound card stops working.
When you order replacement caps, you find they are MUCH larger.

I have successfully recapped many such cards, and typically they go from not working at all, to working powerfully.

For sound cards you absolutely HAVE to use the pin method when re-capping.

It seems that you may have other problems as well though. Typically a sound card soes not effect the ability of a system to boot. That sounds more like a short.

If the sound gradually faded away I would say caps are likely to blame.

I would try recapping the card and see what happens. I looked up the card on Wikipedia and there arent that many caps. It is fiddly work though.
Should take about an hour to do that card with a good iron and suitable pin.
(Don't even try the solder sucker approach)

[seanc]

Re: not another x-fi problem

My X-Fi is covered in G-Luxon.. shame the Windows 7 drives are unusable, otherwise I'd bother to re-cap it.

[TheDragon]

Re: not another x-fi problem

thanks bigbeark for the info.
Being in the age of Windows 7/Unbuntu 10 i guess maybe a new sound card should be brought, x-fi has been out a while. But due to global cutbacks..I too cannot afford a new one. Im using the mainboard realtek one at the moment,
doesnt sound too lively for editing purposes and for games...forget it...

Now you say fading....I never had that. or never noticed it...sound was OK.
One day working, one day not..maybe it was on its way to fadeout...not sure.

It wasnt shorting per-say, just wouldnt allow the other memory banks to work.
I think that is down to that memory requiring a higher voltage, my system is pushing it @ 1.8v and the corsair xms2 requires 1.9v...So i need to test that setting with the x-fi card installed.

It doesnt short/or cut out on the spare old pc, bios see its, windows see's something..but refuses to load drivers...just errors out...

What are the most important caps that should be changed that could make the card ALIVE! ? couple of pounds and I give it a shot...not harm..all to gain...
I do like to recycle...lol

a heads up on that soldering method would also be great. A rich friend has a digital controlled iron (never uses it, dont know why he brought it) which i can borrow....hehehe

Thanks

[bigbeark]

Re: not another x-fi problem

If you had an ESR meter you could isolate the really bad caps on that card, but realistically you should change them all. The caps are really cheap and they all tend to go bad at the same time.

You don't need low-ESR caps for this. Are the caps on your card 85c or 105C?

I use Panasonic "M" series 85c, very inexpensive and better than what you currently have on there.

The sound card is a single layer PCB so easy to remove and replace caps. The cap "legs" are finer wire than on motherboards. You need to hold the card in a fixture because you need both hands free. I just attach the card with a wood screw to a piece of wood that I clamp to my work table. The card is held in a vertical position.

Remove the existing caps in the usual way. Then apply the iron to one side and push the pin through from the other side. This is one time that a narrow conical sharp-pointed soldering iron tip is good. You can put the point right in the hole to melt the solder. It's important to have a pin that is thin enough to go right through the hole. I like a pin with a head, rather than a sewing needle.

Before I start, I make a diagram of the location and values of the caps. Note that some of the caps may be unpolarized (=bipolar). Typically on sound card they undicate the positive with a + sign. If there is no plus sign the cap is unpolarized,

I think I've done about a dozen sound cards and they all worked after recapping. The odds are in your favour.

[Scenic]

Re: not another x-fi problem

My X-Fi is covered in G-Luxon.. shame the Windows 7 drives are unusable, otherwise I'd bother to re-cap it.

same here. Creative likes to use Wincap 85°C GP and G-Luxon..
As i'm using the onboard soundcard now and it does the job quite well, i'm actually thinking about replacing the caps on the board in the audio section instead of recapping my X-Fi which doesn't work properly in Win7 anyways (driver BS)..

[TheDragon]

Re: not another x-fi problem

Thanks again bigbeark for the insight..ESR meter..I see if i can some how get to a technicians lab.
Ok..all the caps are 85degrees. Most of the caps are polorized
which are wincap and jamicon.
The larger g-luxon (which is popularly replaced) is also polorized.
There are 6 gold wincaps which are unpolorized.
Total of 49 electrolytic caps

What more info can i give you?

Thanks

[Per Hansson]

Re: not another x-fi problem

I would try replacing the DC filtering cap first, to see if you can get the drivers installed then.
It is not logical that the output filter caps would have any effect on this (unless they are shorted)
Replace C177 with a good quality LOW ESR capacitor and see if that makes a difference...

This guide might be of help;
http://www.overclock.net/sound-cards...will-void.html

And this might be of use aswell;
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts...-solution.html

[TheDragon]

Re: not another x-fi problem

Thanks for the info Per Hansson.
Today i replaced the 2 caps 177 with Panny fc 2200uf 16v
and 172 with 150uf 6.3v Nichicon.
Again only bios detects its not Windows..

I think there's got to be a short created somewhere because when i turned on the pc, the bios logo came up and then turned fuzzy..
i had to take out he 2 banks of memory out to get the pc to boot

Thanks for all the advice...but for th sake of damaging the rest of the pc, I would rather leave x-fi out.
I am thinking of getting the xonar ds, i got a coupon to get 25% off so...its a good deal..its not bad for a budget sound card and built in OP AMP socket it can be changed to higher quality...

I will keep the x-fi and get it tested as bigbeark has suggested with a ESR meter. I want to get it fixed cost me £100 when brought and with the mods can become a great card. If it works I put it into the HTPC, which at the moment is running on the board realtek .agghh

Thanks again.

[Per Hansson]

Re: not another x-fi problem

If you are upgrading I can really recommend the Auzentech X-Meridian soundcard
They recently released a new version of it (Asus stopped them from selling the old one with an exclusivity deal with C-Media where Asus got all of the CMI8788 sound chipsets...)

They also sell X-fi based soundcards if you prefer to have the Creative sound chipsets...

[TheDragon]

Re: not another x-fi problem

thanks Per Hansson. its difficult to find Auzentech X-Meridian in uk. plus it might be out my budget at the moment.
Are the Auzentech X-fi based cards better quality/supported than creative?
again it maybe out my price...so mayb stick with xonar ds...
if i can cheap as or near to xonar ds price i may consider..

[TheDragon]

Re: not another x-fi problem

Well i purchased the xonar ds card today. Really good sound considerings it a budget. i try and play with op amps to tailor sound a bit.

My question : is it worth changing a few of the caps to higher grades. would this produce noticible advantages?

At the moment..there some KMG, MH and two nichicons on there.

[Per Hansson]

Re: not another x-fi problem

TheDragon; I think the Asus card is fine, they probably use good enough components