lightning hit PC now dead

[Per Hansson]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

Yup, lightning is scary like that
The person I spoke about above, where lightning hit an oak tree on their property...

I helped them find broken stuff by simply smelling it, the smell is very obvious...
Things like refrigerators, plasma TV's and all sorts of things where dead
He has a big wifi network that I setup too, with about half a dozen Linksys WRT54GS routers, they where all fine!
Built like tanks is my opinion of them, they sit in barns etc where there is no heating, so +40 in the summer and -20 in the winter, very nice reliability!

Most things I see where lightning has been and poked is very easy to identify, you have a green PCB which is suddenly black and with half of the components blown into little crispy pieces; that's your problem sir

I always replace at the board level when there has been a lightning strike, component level usually just takes too much time to diagnose and it's likely to be several dead components
But if you want the learning experience then replacing on component levels can be good practice...
(And of course if you have insurance use that instead, so you get a new shiny thing instead of some fixed up Frankenstein thing, I'm really not very fond of things that have been repaired after a lightning strike, does it show? )

[westom]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

Rarely today do you read of a house being destroyed by lightning, but every home for miles around as the voltage spread out and becomes "Sneak Voltage," will be affected.

Which is why phone service disconnects in every town for hours when a thunderstorm approaches. Sneak voltages will destroy their $multi-million switching computer.

Which is why munitions dumps routinely explode when thunderstorms approach. Sneak voltages.

Which is why TV and FM electronics atop the Empire State Building are routinely destroyed 23 times annually due to direct lightning strikes and sneak voltages.

A never ending job is to show linemen why they created surge damage. For example, ground wires were bundled with other wires. Linemen would do that because it looks nicer. Wires had sharp bends. Again, surge damage because sharp bends look clean. One even grounded into a flower box on the porch. Some just never learn; always remain in denial.

Some will post subjective claims and call that knowledge. No numbers is a first indication of myths, lies, or deceit. From over 100 years of well proven experience is a reality – with numbers - from the IEEE entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding':
> Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a path which will, if well
> designed and constructed, not result in damage. Even this means is not positive, providing
> only 99.5-99.9% protection. ...
> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one
> stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...

No protection is 100%. Once we add numbers to those subjective claims - 99.5% protection - then nobody cares about sneak voltages. Telephone COs that can have no damage suffer 100 surges with every thunderstorm. Homeowners suffer about one every seven years. With 99.5% protection by earthing a 'whole house' protector, well, why would anyone entertain those subjective claims? Those are the numbers that say less than 100% protection is virtually 100% protection.

We cannot test a surge protection system. But with over 100 years of knowledge, we know surge damage is directly traceable to a human's mistake. Use appliance damage to find a defect in the protection system Discover why a human mistake made that damage possible. And learn why plug-in protectors even have a history of contributing to appliance damage.

We know protectors inside a building are ineffective. The NIST (US government research agency) is blunter – calls them 'useless'. We know that surge protection means energy dissipates outside a building. We know surge damage is because that energy was permitted inside that building – a human created failure. We know that once energy is permitted inside a building, then that energy will hunt for and find earth destructively via appliances. And no plug-in protector can stop that hunt.

And we know that damage is not from sneak voltages. Damage means currents so massive as to create thousands of volts. Voltages so high as to overwhelm protection already inside every appliance. Protection means earthing protectors from General Electric, Siemens, Intermatic, ABB, Leviton, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, or so many other responsible companies.

Responsible organizations describe the only thing always required for surge protection. Planning guide for Sun Server room:
> Section 6.4.7 Lightning Protection:
> Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The plans for the data center
> should be thoroughly reviewed to identify any paths for surge entry into the data center.
> Surge arrestors can be designed into the system to help mitigate the potential for lightning
> damage within the data center. These should divert the power of the surge by providing a
> path to ground for the surge energy.

Earthing is everything. Reliable facilities do not disconnect. Do not waste money on plug-in solutions. And fix the earth ground - a human created mistake - if damage does happen. Routine is to have direct lightning strikes without damage. But only when one learns 100 years of well proven science. And learns why damage happens if damage happens. What was the destructive path to earth? Why was energy permitted inside the building?

Proper analysis of a failed computer teaches why damage happens and what can be done so that future damage is averted. In most cases, lightning damaged computers are restored - do not fail again. But only when the tech uses good diagnostic procedures - does not shotgun.

Repairing at the component level is not to fix the machine or save money. Repairing at the component level is how one becomes so well educated as to even learn why a sharp wire bend or an adjacent protector can make surge damage easier.

There will always be many who were taught myths by retail advertising. Maybe 40%. Then viciously deny reality. People my father so loved to manipulate because they could so easily be 'educated' by advertising myths. Same people who avidly deny all reality. Would only believe what they are first told to believe. He said it made advertising fun. The informed readers learn why appliances are damaged, why effective protection always means earthing, why disconnecting is so unreliable, and why one does not learn from shotgunning.

The computer can be quickly analyzed by simply taking one minute to collect voltage numbers. That means doing something that makes no sense until lessons are learned from those numbers. Useful answers always requires numbers - not subjective speculation.

[EGuevarae]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

.... But with over 100 years of knowledge

You and your 100 years of knowledge.....

.... Useful answers always requires numbers - not subjective speculation.

You like numbers? I have one : you have posted 11 times and yet you have not helped the OP a bit .... nobody puts in doubt your knowledge (yet), but the thing here is that a lecture of lightning storms,data centers and surge arrestors is out of scope here ..... not because it is not true, but because it has not been asked for (in the first place) and will not help the original poster,as it is so technically elevated that is out of the scope of the problem ...
Nice improvement in grammar,I must add....but you still need improvement.
Yet all opinions are valid....... freedom of speech....

[PlainBill]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

You and your 100 years of knowledge.....

You like numbers? I have one : you have posted 11 times and yet you have not helped the OP a bit .... nobody puts in doubt your knowledge (yet), but the thing here is that a lecture of lightning storms,data centers and surge arrestors is out of scope here ..... not because it is not true, but because it has not been asked for (in the first place) and will not help the original poster,as it is so technically elevated that is out of the scope of the problem ...
Nice improvement in grammar,I must add....but you still need improvement.
Yet all opinions are valid....... freedom of speech....

Demonstrably false. Some things are a matter of personal preference - you believe your children are brilliant; I believe my grandchildren are better. We agree to disagree to maintain peace; and find safer things to discuss.

"Lefty" was of the opinion that an M80 was not dangerous. I disagreed. To prove his point, "Lefty" held an M80 in his right hand and lit the fuse - thus the nickname. Not only was "Lefty's" opinion invalid, it was dangerous.

As another example, Saturday a large number of people were of the opinion that their driving skills were so good they could drive at full speed on I-10 in spite of the thunderstorm. 69 of them learned otherwise an a 2.5 mile long series of chain reaction accidents.

PlainBill

[PCBONEZ]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

Demonstrably false. Some things are a matter of personal preference - you believe your children are brilliant; I believe my grandchildren are better. We agree to disagree to maintain peace; and find safer things to discuss.

I agree that agree to disagree is a good thing.
.
I happen to agree with eguevarae who's contention [and mine] is basically that westom has a head full of ideological theories and no practical real world experience.
- Thus, his/her ideas about how things work might as well have come out of a fantasy novel.
- And thus, he/she is not contributing anything at all useful to readers or knowledge base here.
.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

Which is why phone service disconnects in every town for hours when a thunderstorm approaches.

Spoken like a true ideological theorist with no practical real world experience.
- I've lived in 11 US States, 2 countries, and over 20 cities.
- Not a single one of them did this.

Which is why munitions dumps routinely explode when thunderstorms approach. Sneak voltages.

Spoken like a true ideological theorist with no practical real world experience.
- "routinely" - This hasn't happened in the US since 1926.

Which is why TV and FM electronics atop the Empire State Building are routinely destroyed 23 times annually due to direct lightning strikes and sneak voltages.

If your theories actually worked they would use them there now wouldn't they.

A never ending job is to show linemen why they created surge damage. For example, ground wires were bundled with other wires.

This is done because, depending on what the wiring is, the ground wires reduce cross-talk and/or EMI.
- DUH!

Not going to quote/repeat all that whole blurb of gibberish:

According to NLSI [National Lightning Safety Institute] the ONLY Absolute protection from lightning is a fully enclosed Faraday Cage.
If there are conductors entering and leaving the cage then it isn't fully enclosed.
- This is because the biggest risk with lightening is the induced voltages [resultant from the EMP/EMI] in the general area and the paths those induced voltages take. - Not the direct path of the strike.
-
On grounding NLSI says: "A spectral study of lightning's typical impulse reveals both a high and a low frequency content. The grounding system appears to the lightning impulse as a transmission line where wave propagation theory applies. A considerable part of lightning's current responds horizontally when striking the ground: it is estimated that less than 15% of it penetrates the earth."
- This means that only 15% of a strike is dissipated via a direct grounding path.
- The remaining 85% is dissipated via inducing voltages in surrounding structures.
That is the EMP I've been talking about.

........ surge protection ....... surge protection ........ surge protection .......

GCE [Gross Conceptual Error]
Despite advertising claims and the fact that it helps a little if the strike isn't too close, Surge Protection isn't FOR lightening.

Proper analysis of a failed computer teaches why damage happens and what can be done so that future damage is averted. In most cases, lightning damaged computers are restored - do not fail again. But only when the tech uses good diagnostic procedures - does not shotgun.

Spoken like a true ideological theorist with no practical real world experience.
"In most cases", in the real world, lightning damaged computers are 'beyond economical repair' - aka useless junk. The damage is typically extensive, random, it's diverse, and unique to that machine. There is little or no training value in having a student work on gear with multiple unknown problems. In fact it is DETRIMENTAL to learning because all it does is frustrate the student.
- That's why Electronics schools use test-rig training aids with ONE problem at a time.
- Any respectable, responsible, 'worth his pay' educator isn't going to hand students problems that the instructor himself doesn't know the solutions to, particularly when there may not be a solution.
That is irresponsible and a waste of the students time.

Repairing at the component level is not to fix the machine or save money.

Spoken like a true ideological theorist with no practical real world experience.
- In the real world it's -ALL- about time and money.
THAT should be taught to students as well.
Outside of Academia recognizing "Beyond ECONOMICAL Repair" is a critical skill.

There will always be many who were taught myths by retail advertising.

You mean like yourself and surge protection?

... and why one does not learn from shotgunning.

Handing a student lightening damaged equipment -IS- shotgunning.
- It's shotgunning education.

The computer can be quickly analyzed by simply taking one minute to collect voltage numbers.

Spoken like a true ideological theorist with no practical real world experience.
- One who has never actually worked on ANY kind of damaged equipment beyond simulated problems in a lab and one who has very little real world experience.

.

[PlainBill]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

Spoken like a true ideological theorist with no practical real world experience.
- I've lived in 11 US States, 2 countries, and over 20 cities.
- Not a single one of them did this.


Spoken like a true ideological theorist with no practical real world experience.
- "routinely" - This hasn't happened in the US since 1926.


If your theories actually worked they would use them there now wouldn't they.


This is done because, depending on what the wiring is, the ground wires reduce cross-talk and/or EMI.
- DUH!


According to NLSI [National Lightning Safety Institute] the ONLY Absolute protection from lightning is a fully enclosed Faraday Cage.
If there are conductors entering and leaving the cage then it isn't fully enclosed.
- This is because the biggest risk with lightening is the induced voltages [resultant from the EMP/EMI] in the general area and the paths those induced voltages take. - Not the direct path of the strike.
-
On grounding NLSI says: "A spectral study of lightning's typical impulse reveals both a high and a low frequency content. The grounding system appears to the lightning impulse as a transmission line where wave propagation theory applies. A considerable part of lightning's current responds horizontally when striking the ground: it is estimated that less than 15% of it penetrates the earth."
- This means that only 15% of a strike is dissipated via a direct grounding path.
- The remaining 85% is dissipated via inducing voltages in surrounding structures.
That is the EMP I've been talking about.


GCE [Gross Conceptual Error]
Despite advertising claims and the fact that it helps a little if the strike isn't too close, Surge Protection isn't FOR lightening.


Spoken like a true ideological theorist with no practical real world experience.
"In most cases", in the real world, lightning damaged computers are 'beyond economical repair' - aka useless junk. The damage is typically extensive, random, it's diverse, and unique to that machine. There is little or no training value in having a student work on gear with multiple unknown problems. In fact it is DETRIMENTAL to learning because all it does is frustrate the student.
- That's why Electronics schools use test-rig training aids with ONE problem at a time.
- Any respectable, responsible, 'worth his pay' educator isn't going to hand students problems that the instructor himself doesn't know the solutions to, particularly when there may not be a solution.
That is irresponsible and a waste of the students time.


Spoken like a true ideological theorist with no practical real world experience.
- In the real world it's -ALL- about time and money.
THAT should be taught to students as well.
Outside of Academia recognizing "Beyond ECONOMICAL Repair" is a critical skill.


You mean like yourself and surge protection?


Handing a student lightening damaged equipment -IS- shotgunning.
- It's shotgunning education.


Spoken like a true ideological theorist with no practical real world experience.
- One who has never actually worked on ANY kind of damaged equipment beyond simulated problems in a lab and one who has very little real world experience.

.

And I am of the opinion that in this case you failed to detect sarcasm.

PlainBill

[Per Hansson]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

And I am of the opinion that in this case you failed to detect sarcasm.

PlainBill

Say what?
I find no sarcasm in the original posts by westom, perhaps I am as blind as PCBONEZ then
I agree with all you say PCBONEZ!

[PCBONEZ]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

Say what?
I find no sarcasm in the original posts by westom, perhaps I am as blind as PCBONEZ then
I agree with all you say PCBONEZ!

In fairness I re-read the first few sentences of that last one a several times because I couldn't tell if the intent was sarcasm or not.
Based on content of his/her previous posts, I concluded not.
.

[EGuevarae]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

Demonstrably false. Some things are a matter of personal preference... PlainBill

I agree.My bad.... what I was trying to say is that everyone is free to give his opinion (so the trailing "freedom of speech" sentence) and then the people could either agree or disagree with it..
Perfectly expressed in the " We agree to disagree to maintain peace; and find safer things to discuss." . Thanks Bill!

[EGuevarae]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

- In the real world it's -ALL- about time and money.
THAT should be taught to students as well.
Outside of Academia recognizing "Beyond ECONOMICAL Repair" is a critical skill.

That's another thing I am trying to say to the guy.Yes, you can learn.....learn how to invest a tremendous amount of time and maybe not so much components (comparable to changing an entire board or the whole rig) but it won't be economical.Not applicable in the real world ....

[westom]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

... and will not help the original poster,as it is so technically elevated that is out of the scope of the problem ...

Again you miss the point. First, surge damage is directly traceable to human failure. A human who all but invites surges to hunt for earth destructively via electronics. Failure to learn from their mistakes or failure to even get educated in principles understood 100 years ago.

Second, by doing proper diagnostic analysis (not shotgunning), the OP can learn why surges do damage. How to solve computer problems faster without even disconnecting any wires. And how to avoid that damage with simple, well proven, and less expensive solutions.

Third, most surge damaged computers have few damaged components. Most surge damage computers are easily fixed.

Fourth, proper diagnostics mean spares salvaged from a scrapped computer are not unknown - not overstressed. Once a surge path is identified, then spare parts that have not yet failed are quickly identified as suspect. Proper analysis means one learns how few parts are really damaged by lightning. And how few parts are actually damaged by a surge.

Fifth, those numbers mean the few who actually know this stuff can provide useful replies.

Routine is to have direct lightning strikes without damage to a computer. And routine is an informed tech who uses computer damage to eliminate reasons for that damage. Learning means not doing shotgunning.

That damaged computer is a perfect example to learn better diagnostic techniques, how easily a lightning damaged computer may be restored, and to find a human mistake that made that (rumored) lightning damage possible.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

Again you miss the point. First, surge damage is directly traceable to human failure. A human who all but invites surges to hunt for earth destructively via electronics. Failure to learn from their mistakes or failure to even get educated in principles understood 100 years ago.

Second, by doing proper diagnostic analysis (not shotgunning), the OP can learn why surges do damage. How to solve computer problems faster without even disconnecting any wires. And how to avoid that damage with simple, well proven, and less expensive solutions.

Third, most surge damaged computers have few damaged components. Most surge damage computers are easily fixed.

Fourth, proper diagnostics mean spares salvaged from a scrapped computer are not unknown - not overstressed. Once a surge path is identified, then spare parts that have not yet failed are quickly identified as suspect. Proper analysis means one learns how few parts are really damaged by lightning. And how few parts are actually damaged by a surge.

Fifth, those numbers mean the few who actually know this stuff can provide useful replies.

Routine is to have direct lightning strikes without damage to a computer. And routine is an informed tech who uses computer damage to eliminate reasons for that damage. Learning means not doing shotgunning.

That damaged computer is a perfect example to learn better diagnostic techniques, how easily a lightning damaged computer may be restored, and to find a human mistake that made that (rumored) lightning damage possible.

It's blatantly obvious you've never even SEEN a computer that has suffered lightening damage.

[Toasty]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

i4004 relative?

[EGuevarae]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

i4004 relative?

I know... I remember the signature of PCBONEZ..... "i4004 on Ignore list".......

Toasty! Nice to see you man!

[EGuevarae]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

....principles understood 100 years ago.

The 100 years man .....
And you know what? I want to shotgun something, but not precisely the OP damaged system ....

[Per Hansson]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

westom; riddle me this
You say the Empire State Buildings masts are destroyed 23 times each year

Well now if your theory about lightning protection where correct how come the masts gets destroyed each time it is hit?

How tall is it?
There are several numbers to describe the height of the Empire State Building. The total height of the building, including the lightning rod, is 1,454 feet.

http://history1900s.about.com/od/193...mpirefacts.htm

[PCBONEZ]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

westom; riddle me this
you say the empire state buildings masts are destroyed 23 times each year

well now if your theory about lightning protection where correct how come the masts gets destroyed each time it is hit?


http://history1900s.about.com/od/193...mpirefacts.htm

2 + 2 = 5

[westom]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

Well now if your theory about lightning protection where correct how come the masts gets destroyed each time it is hit?

Others claimed that nothing can protect from direct lightning. Which is why TV and FM electronics (not the mast) atop the Empire State Building are destroyed 23 times annually.

If you did not see obvious sarcasm that mocks their "nothing can protect from lightning" fears, then stop reading. Buy the most expensive plug-in protector you can find.

Routine atop the Empire State Building (23 times annually) and WTC (40 times annually) was to have direct lightning strikes without damage. That lightning rod is also the antenna. Because humans who learned 100+ years old science do not entertain junk science posted by a majority.

Damage by a direct lightning strike is directly traceable to a human educated by hearsay and junk science. You have three choices. Be naive and suffer damage. Be naive, waste vast sums on protectors inside the building, and suffer damage. Or be informed - earth a 'whole house' protector. Then nobody even knew a surge existed.

Learn why 911 Operators remove headsets and leave the room everytime a thunderstorm approaches. That is what a majority here are saying. Clearly they must be right. They outnumber the professionals.

Informed techs use diagnostic analysis to even locate a building defect that permitted computer damage. Techs that only shotgun never learn how this is done. ‘Work harder; not smarter'. Or believe electronics atop the Empire State Building are routinely damaged. I even told them to believe it. That proves it must be true.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: lightning hit PC now dead

i4004 relative?

Possibly, or perhaps their mothers shared a preference in controlled substances while they carried.
.