Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

[rgsgww]

What is the difference between audio capacitors and normal ones. Is there an esr difference? What would happen if somebody used audio caps for an audio power regulation circuit.

Also, I cannot seem to find any esr ratings for caps even on the datasheets.

Thanks for your time

[ss627]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

They are usually huge for their rating.

[Logistics]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

If you mean caps such as BlackGate's, yes they have very low ESR from the specs I have seen and have relatively good ripple, but electrolytics are not desirable in a signal path to begin with, no matter how nice they are, so only use an "Audio"-labeled electrolytic in the signal path if you absolutely cannot utilize a film capacitor due to size limitations, physical or uF value. And frankly, the difference in sound is going to be minimal. You're better off just buying a quality bipolar (non-polarized) electrolytic and bypassing it with a small film the likes of 0.1uF if you have to use electrolytics.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

They use a different method of etching the aluminum before the oxide layer is formed onto it and that makes the oxide layer either grainier [rougher] or less grainy [smoother].
I don't remember which way is which though.
Rougher oxide layer for audio or smoother. ???

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

Audio caps are fine in non-audio apps but not the other way around.

[Toasty]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

Smoother. Improved frequency response, so they say. I think most of it is marketing. Capacitance and size are sacrificed in the process.

>>Audio caps are fine in non-audio apps but not the other way around.<<
Would you expound on that a bit? I thought using audio caps in a power supply wasn't a good idea (not low enough impedance). I'm sure there's a caveat there somewhere.

Toast

[netherlands]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

Changing power supply caps with non audio grade caps will worsening the sounds much (the caps need to be burn-in for a few hundred hours) if you change it with audio grade, the sounds already good without burn-in process, and even better after burn-in period

[Toasty]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

Burn-in is baloney, malarkey, and hype all in one package. The only "burn-in" required is to run them at their rated voltage for an hour or two to "reform" the electrolyte and foil, and that is only necessary if they are "old" stock. New caps are right and ready to use.

My question to PC was because I think he flipped his thoughts there. I think he meant the statement he made to be the other way around. i.e.- Non-audio caps are fine in Audio apps. I wanted his thoughts on the subject.

Cheers!
Toast

[netherlands]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

Toasty, I agree with you. You can use non audio caps finely in audio applications. As long you use a good caps, not a fake small cap inside big tube (I've seen a lot of these). Using audio grade may improve the sound quality, but not much. I prefer to spend more on the speakers, the improvement bigger than caps.

But burn in is not a non sense. Every time I've changed the caps, my amp lost detail and staging. But after a few days they are back

[Toasty]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

That sounds more like component failure or old stock that's out of factory spec. If they're tube amps I suspect the change you're hearing is not in the caps...

Toast

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

Meaning of.

Audio caps are fine in non-audio apps but not the other way around.

- Non-audio caps in audio gear make audiophools unhappy.
- Audio caps in a PSU or on a mobo will make no difference because SMPS noise is up around 200 kHz [way above the 20Hz-20kHz for audio] and up there the caps don't perform any different.
-

[Face]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

Burn-in is baloney, malarkey, and hype all in one package. The only "burn-in" required is to run them at their rated voltage for an hour or two to "reform" the electrolyte and foil, and that is only necessary if they are "old" stock. New caps are right and ready to use.

Then can you explain why with new crossover caps a soundstage can sound flat and dull, but after 10, 20, or sometimes more hours, things open up.

[Toasty]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

>>Then can you explain why with new crossover caps a soundstage can sound flat and dull, but after 10, 20, or sometimes more hours, things open up.<<

1) Your hearing "adjusts" to the new sound.
2) Refer to the post regarding component failure or old stock.

Any device that is dependent on such a impressionable sensation such as your hearing will always cause this controversy. Show me cold hard evidence of things "opening up" such as a test signal and frequency response data, and I'll show you a cap or component that is out of spec with its engineered design.

I've had this argument since High School and Technical School regarding audio. One guy says the equalizer should be flat, the next says no it should be boosting here and dropping there with this little tweak here and that one there. It really depends on the listener's preferences.

I can set up a room that is absolutely "perfect" according to all the published information and its measured responses. Yet the next guy will come in and whack the bass up 3db and cut the mids 5. Go figure.

It is all a matter of taste and perception.

Toast

[kc8adu]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

Then can you explain why with new crossover caps a soundstage can sound flat and dull, but after 10, 20, or sometimes more hours, things open up.

you adjust to the new sound and accept it.
often parts swaps do nothing but start up placebo effect.this is proportional to the cost of these parts.
did a marantz 2325 for a audiophool freind.
black gates in the right and fc in the left.he didnt notice ANYTHING! till months later i told him.i saw no difference with a audio generator and scope either.

[Face]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

I wasn't referring to frequency response. I was referring to the soundstage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_s...ound_Recording

Soundstage of a Sound Recording

Soundstage also refers to the depth and richness of an audio recording (usually referring to the playback process). According to audiophiles, the quality of the playback is very much dependent on how one is able to pick out different instruments, voices, vocal parts, etc. exactly where they are located on an imaginary 2D or 3D field. This can enhance not only the listener's involvement in the recording but also their overall perception of the stage.

I do agree though, in my experience most caps used in loudspeaker applications do settle in with around 10 hours of use, give or take. But how come changes in soundstage don't appear to later, I don't know.

kc8adu, which film caps did you use? Just because he didn't notice, doesn't mean there isn't a difference. Maybe he doesn't critically listen, maybe his rig isn't transparent enough, or maybe that most vintage gear is very coloured. I recently changed a few caps in a old McIntosh amp, there was hardly any difference at all. If I wasn't very familiar with the amp, I probably wouldn't have noticed a difference either.

[Toasty]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

And how does one measure a "soundstage" as you suggest?

From Wikipedia:
"Soundstage also refers to the depth and richness of an audio recording (usually referring to the playback process). According to audiophiles, the quality of the playback is very much dependent on how one is able to pick out different instruments, voices, vocal parts, etc. exactly where they are located on an imaginary 2D or 3D field. This can enhance not only the listener's involvement in the recording but also their overall perception of the stage."

Please note the highlighted bits. It is all part of interpretation and perception. The human senses are easily fooled.

Measure it and show me the difference. It is frequency response.

Toast

[netherlands]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

These will become a never ending discussion

I believe that using high quality caps will make differences, small differences but means the whole new world for audiophiles.

Using High quality caps is not for everyone, only for special person who can recognize micro differences or people who believe that they can recognize it.


d

[Toasty]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

>>These will become a never ending discussion<<
It already is, and worldwide too.

>>...whole new world for audiophiles.<<
Yes, more areas for them to chuck their money into. It's kinda like owning a boat...

Using quality components anywhere will make a difference in just about any *thing* out there. Be it watches, cars, amplifiers, computers, roads, buildings, etc. ad nauseum.

If you can discern "micro" differences now, give it 5 years... Age will fix that... unless you're the 6 Million dollar man, or a dog.

>>or people who believe that they can recognize it.<<
Exactly!

I'm not just hypothesizing here. I've done this (in my younger years) and more. I've spent large sums in getting it just right. I've built my own equipment, calculated obsessively, discerned spatial differences, and had some really serious debates over amps, tuners, wire, crossovers, and power feeds. It did approach and several times exceed anal retentiveness. I wish I had those bucks from 25 years ago today.

The divergence from the original question was regarding "burn in". I stand on what I said.

Toast

[linuxguru]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

Burn-in does occur, and is measurable. When the oxide layer between the foil and the electrolyte re-forms, the nature of the bias applied to the cap is critical to the nanostructure of the oxide layer. If you bias it with pure DC (the way it's done at the factory), the oxide layer will be smoother and the surface area lower. If there's an AC component to the bias (when re-formed in circuit, i.e. burned-in), the oxide layer will be rougher and with a larger surface area. You can usually tell the difference between the two in double-blind listening tests, if you know what you're looking for - most audio engineers with good hearing acuity should be able to tell.

OTOH, the difference between exotica such as Black Gates and generic low-ESR caps like FC are a different matter altogether. It is my case that there is no perceptible difference between an AC-reformed (burned-in) FC and the exotica, in most small-signal, high-impedance applications. There may be a perceptible difference in large-signal and/or high-current applications - these include passive crossover networks, output-stage bypass, and some VAS bootstraps.

BTW, Nichicon actually makes generic low-ESR caps with the foils pre-etched/pre-formed for audio use - these are the Muse series, of which there are more than half-a-dozen different series. These are inexpensive and Muse FG/KG/KZ are generally indistinguishable from Black Gate NX in most small-signal interstage-coupling applications, at a fraction of the cost. Muse KZ can probably replace Black Gates in any application, small- or large-signal, without a perceptible difference.

[Toasty]

Re: Audio capactors, what are they? Whats about their esr?

Interesting and makes sense.

>>Burn-in does occur, and is measurable.<<

How is it measured?
What (sound component) are you looking for to see the difference?
What does that do to the sound?

All I want is a repeatable method that either proves or disproves.

Is audio gear now sold on post burn-in specs?

Toast