Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

[shotthruthemb]

Supposedly electrolysis can be done at much less voltage than what is currently understood as the standard of electrolysis today - also called brute force electrolysis. I have read about Stan Meyers electrolysis device which can supposedly split the bonds on H2O by using only 1/2 a volt, and while I don't doubt that it's possible, I have no way of testing or confirming how said device works.

Has anyone tried installing these and gotten even reasonable results? I don't mind paying for gas, but at $4 a gallon and 10 miles on only the highway and 5 in the city... Bull#%$+!! I need to cut my transportation costs while still retaining the function. Engine swaps are only on the table if you want to pay for all of it. It's time for the processor to deliver the same performance but at half the wattage! Or in this case, hopefully a 1/4th...

I don't really have a means to play around with this stuff, has anyone had success with this concept of using HHO to reduce gas consumption? Anything over a 20% gain say more like %50-%200? Please do share what they used so I can repeat the process... Without spending $2-5k on a blackbox.

[stj]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

people are doing it, it's not simple though.

[shotthruthemb]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

It seems that water, when hit with electricity (about 30-40 amps @ 12 volts, so about 480 watts or 8 watts/minute) will begin to break apart... I don't know if its from heat, or something about the electricity breaking the bonds between the H and O2. I think the ions are turned from positive to negative? This creates a bubbling effect, or a "steam" rather, of separated H and O atoms that are highly flammable.

It's very different from just boiling water, as boiled water can't be ignited by spark. Although steam engines are very powerful, much more practical than ICE car engines, just unfortunately much more prone to breaking apart from all the intense pressure that it operates under.

The problem with typical electrolysis is that it needs to much power, at least that's what I've read. Lots of people have built their own bubblers in their own yard or garage, but none of them claim to use only 1/2 a volt to create the separation of H and O. I would like to get into this, but I just don't have the time or resources at my disposal...

[stj]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

there is a patent for modified "flamable water"!!
the company had an explosion a couple of years back that made the international news.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

Electrolysis of water is a reduction process and is not thermodynamically favorable, you lose a lot of energy doing it this way. It's only viable if your electricity is cheap. Home electricity is way too expensive.

The large fixed cost of electrolysis is that the water and especially oxygen produced is highly corrosive to the electrodes and thus need to be made of a noble metal (platinum, gold, etc.) You also need to store it, and costs energy to pressurize it. The low voltage methods require you to heat the water, requiring a stronger reactor vessel, and heating the vessel is also energy (which is a variable cost just like the cost of electricity) that's needed to cause reduction to occur.

What are you planning to do with the hydrogen, you still need to replace the engine, it's not like you can use hydrogen in an internal combustion engine directly.

I'm also not so sure about the "efficiency" of steam engines. The pressures in steam engines are much lower and cooler than of a gasoline and especially diesel combustion engine, and the "minimum size/weight" ratio is quite high. The dual "fuel" system where water inevitably needs to be replaced is a problem as well, and the weight/density of the water also contributes to inefficiencies.

[petehall347]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

i think cng is a better choice if you have cheap electric for the compressor .

[budm]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

How do you force 40A of current to flow through water with 12V source? Any link to verify that? Load dictates how much current it will try to draw from the Voltage source.
40A @12V is 0.30 Ohm.

[Curious.George]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

How do you force 40A of current to flow through water with 12V source? Any link to verify that? Load dictates how much current it will try to draw from the Voltage source.
40A @12V is 0.30 Ohm.

Seawater is .2 ohm-meters

[budm]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

So the Brown's gas is based on salt water? I thought it is based on plain water. After doing some research it looks like it is not using plain water.
There seems to lots of skeptics about this Brown gas stuff.
http://www.nlcpr.com/Deceptions10.php

[Curious.George]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

So the Brown's gas is based on salt water? I thought it is based on plain water. After doing some research it looks like it is not using plain water.

That was my point -- plain water won't carry that sort of current at such a low impressed potential (unless its over an incredibly short distance). Something has to be in the water to enhance its conductivity.

[llonen]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

Brown gas, that sounds like the stuff that comes out of my, oh never mind. This scam has been doing the rounds for like an age and is a pile of said brown stuff.

[stj]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

i have seen the 12v high current stuff,

it's done using closely spaced metal plates - a lot of them.
kind of looks like an old tuning capacitor.
the closer the better and the more surface area the better.

but i dont see the point unless you have the spare current - like in a v8.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

Oh gawd...there's a whole conspiracy behind "HHO" I wasn't aware of...
so much trash science around *sigh* agreed brown gas is the methane that comes out my a$$ which might actually have small amount of reclaimable energy when combusted.

No, you cannot get energy for free from water. Unless we're dealing with DDO TTO DTO DHO THO -- but we haven't efficiently been able to do so yet...

[stj]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

actually water is fuel - chemically it is perfect, hydrogen and oxidizer.
we just need to learn how to break the molecular bonds more easily.

a lot of research is going on with high voltages and differing frequencys of squarewaves.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

Water is NOT fuel. Water is EXHAUST, but it has *lots* of uses.

If one calls water "fuel" than carbon dioxide is also "fuel" ... They are not.

This is not to say they are useful feed stocks to chemical reactions, in which they are. But in both cases, they require energy to use these as feed stocks, whether it be in the other reactant (e.g., sodium metal) or addition of such (e.g., photosynthesis.)

[shotthruthemb]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

Electrolysis of water is a reduction process and is not thermodynamically favorable, you lose a lot of energy doing it this way. It's only viable if your electricity is cheap. Home electricity is way too expensive.

This is brute force electrolysis, and by itself is not very practical unless you have some high duty electrical current to back it up. There are ways to make the water chemically separate much easier, but aside from adding baking soda(?) to your water, I have no idea what they are.

I read there has been a lot success with resonance, using a square wave generator etc, but I don't really have a way to play with any of that and do any studying or verifying of what works and what doesn't. I'm sure it's part of the key to a better low voltage electrolysis as resonance does some amazing things, but it's technically beyond me right now.

What are you planning to do with the hydrogen, you still need to replace the engine, it's not like you can use hydrogen in an internal combustion engine directly.

Well, I can either use a lubricant that gets sprayed into the engine to keep the pistons and valves moist(or just use a fraction of gasoline to achieve the same effect), or I can switch over to a propane engine, as they have hardened seat valves and are more geared for this sort of thing. Running a hot fire fuel that burns completely on ignition is very rough on a typical car engine and will burn out its internal parts very quickly without some lubricating aid. Most of the gasoline that is burned inside the engine isn't fully burned, and exits as exhaust. This is because when you goto a gas station, you don't just get pure gasoline from the fuel pump, but rather a huge mix of additives in addition to the gasoline that all burn at different degrees and have varying flash points. This does help keep your engine running longer, not because it doesn't cause build up inside the chambers, but because on exhaust a lot of heat is transferred with the expelled chemicals that didn't fully burn, away from the pistons and internal engine components that would otherwise overheat.

I'm also not so sure about the "efficiency" of steam engines. The pressures in steam engines are much lower and cooler than of a gasoline and especially diesel combustion engine, and the "minimum size/weight" ratio is quite high. The dual "fuel" system where water inevitably needs to be replaced is a problem as well, and the weight/density of the water also contributes to inefficiencies.

http://www.modelenginenews.org/etw/deltec.html

I know someone who is really into steam engines. I'll have to double check, but I believe he told me a Napier Deltic was originally designed to run as a steam engine. Steam engines can be built to be very powerful and would function well as a automotive or train engine, except for the major issue that in order for the engine to be practical or efficient, it has to operate under extremely high psi. I believe this goes for the boiler tank also. All the internal stress of water pressure expanding and contracting inside a metal chamber is a recipe for disaster, as over time the metal will warp, expand, and eventually crack while under load. Essentially, it's unavoidable, unless you replace the boiler tank and steam engine every few years. When this happens, you don't want to be anywhere near the boiler tank, because if you are, you have a good chance of being engulfed by a very hot and high pressure blast of steam that will easily melt you alive, unless you are in an astronaut suit. Although I would think they could just encase the boiler tank in another shell of metal. But I suppose it's still just not practical to have to replace all that the materials and parts constantly to ensure it will run correctly.

i think cng is a better choice if you have cheap electric for the compressor .

Eh, I dunno. I hear you get slightly worse mileage out of it, but propane is typically cheaper. Its just not practical for me unless I can find substantial gain from using less. Electronic fuel injection is good, but I need something that will rival the mileage of hybrid electric or turbo diesel cars. I suppose if I really restricted the flow of cng/propane into a carburetor for idle that might work pretty well. I'm more attracted to the idea of using something like flammable water

Is this forum for retarded shitheads?

Wow, considering this forum has resources for free that would typically cost the average consumer $100/hr... I wouldn't think so. But the ability to think and think like a computer are two different things.

[shotthruthemb]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

Water is NOT fuel.

H2O. Hydrogen(flammable)... Hydrogen(flammable)... Oxygen(flammable).

If you spray a small, fine mist of water onto a very, very hot (red hot, like 2500-3000F) heating element, it will ignite. You can also spray a very hot camp fire with a small dose of water and watch it ignite.

It's quite flammable in the right circumstances...

[eccerr0r]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

I see we have a homemade "chemist" with no clue about thermodynamics here and I'm out of the discussion with my face in my palm...

[stj]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

you shouldnt let so-called laws of physics stop idea's or research.
not unless you want to see an end to discoveries.
tesla warned against such behaviour.
most of those "laws" are based on theories from long before the technologies existed to even prove or disprove them.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Has anyone had any sucess with HHO as a fuel source?

However heat dissociation been tried before. We do know that if heated hot enough, water will dissociate ...

but what about that energy used to heat it that hot, that's not free energy either. If it took less energy to dissociate, then we reburn the hydrogen, and woah we have perpetual motion...


I had my hopes up on EM drive, even thought about trying to replicate it with a magnetron, but it seemed Newton prevailed...

... and btw 2500°F is not hot enough, needs to be 5000°F or so without catalysts. Getting to 5000°F is difficult to attain, and each time the dissociation occurs that temperature goes down a bit, requiring energy to be continually fed; not only that, it's an equilibrium and separating the two in that hot mixture while losses from thermal escape from containment...

Granted it's still a lot easier than doing the real energy collection from hydrogen: fusion.