To ground or not to ground… that is the question

[momaka]

I moved to a new apartment for next semester in college. It’s actually a duplex in a house built in the 50’s or 60’s. What’s bugging me, though, is the apartment has mostly 2-prong outlets (with the exception for two in the kitchen, one in the bathroom, and one for the window AC unit in the living room – these are GFCI, though I don’t know if they have any ground). As you all somewhat know me, I prefer to use my desktop computer if I can. Of course, this is now getting in the way because both my desktop and its accompanying CRT monitor have 3-prong cords (as does my printer too, actually). I also have other 3-prong equipment.

Before I begin, let me state that, YES, I know it is probably illegal for me to do any electrical work - especially since I am only renting the place. But before my lease ends, I intend to return everything back the same way it was before. Also, this is not the first time I have done electrical work. I wired all of the high power outlets in my friends shop. Most of his machines pull several kW @ 208V. I’m not really bragging, as I know my skills are nowhere near professional. But I do everything carefully and try to use common sense when doing any electrical work. And ouf course, tight connections everywhere.

Back on topic…
So I was thinking of just changing the outlets with 3-pronged ones. However, there is no grounding wire in the outlets. Correct me if I am wrong, but after a bit of reading online, it was suggested that the only “up to code” way that I can install 3-prong outlets without ground is if they are GFCI and if there is a clear indication on each outlet’s cover, “No Equipment Ground”.

I already have two GFCI outlets ready at my disposal. The only thing I am not sure of is there is enough space in the existing outlet boxes to fit the new GFCI outlets. In case there isn’t (and I rather not tare up the existing boxes as I am renting the place), I was thinking to install just regular 3-prong outlets. This is where my main question is:

If I install 3-prong outlets where no grounding is available, should I leave the ground on each 3-prong outlet unconnected to anything, or should I tie it to Neutral?

From what I gather, neither of these solutions are up to code. But, again, that’s not my concern here, as this “fix” is for myself only and I will be returning everything back to its original state before my lease expires. I’m only interested to know which of these solutions is safer. I know many old buildings in Eastern Europe tie Ground to Neutral in each outlet if only 2-wire is available. Of course, I’ve also seen plenty of cases where the ground on the outlet was left unconnected.

As far as where I would like to change these outlets – just one or two in the living room and one or two in the bedroom. The house has hardwood floors and is raised about a foot off of the ground (there is no concrete under the floor). Last I checked, neither of these outlets I wanted to change are near any grounded conductor (such as a sink faucet, etc.). So if the GFCI 3-prong outlets don’t fit, I am thinking I might just get away with 3-prong non-GFCI and leaving ground unconnected.

I don’t know, what do you all think?
I certainly want to avoid those stupid, cheap 2-prong to 3-prong adapters. IMO, that’s probably the most unsafe option.
Any other suggestions?

[Sparkey55]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Do not do any electrical modifications on the wiring in the apartment. Contact the Landlord if something is wrong. Most States would consider what you are wanting to do as attempted arson.

[stj]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

and NEVER tie earth to the N line.

because it may not be what you think!!!

[Mad_Professor]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Seriously... If it's not my place as in I don't own it, I wouldn't mess with it.

The point of a ground is to lead stray current away from people and potential parallel ground paths from grounded appliances.

You can install GFCI but you would not have any ground for fault stray current to go but that's ok since the gfci will trip if there is difference of 0.05 amps between line and load, giving you only a minor shock before it kicks off. Down side (and I have this problem in the shop) is if you have PSU with active PFC it will trip these gfci even with a Battery Backup. You may get lucky and it will not trip or you'll get it every time you turn on the computer.

If you install a regular three prong, well now that's just illegal, not up to code, but is any body going to care no, because it's a receptacle you'll still have the problem with stray current and no gfci to trip when it reaches it's 0.05 amp trip, so you could die.

If you tie the ground to neutral and the neutral breaks later down the line well your appliances become hot waiting for someone or something to ground to.

Get yourself some quality cheater plugs, or tell them to have electrician come out and change the receptacle for you, or find a better apartment.

If you don't feel like doing any of that then....

Frankly what I would do is just a get a 1900 box, and one gfci recep
(this is optional) plus one plain receptacle, with respective cover for box and 14 awg SJOOW with cord connector or clamp for box and then get a 1-15P plug. Don't connect the ground of the SJOOW on either end, since it's pointless nothing for it to ground out to. Wire up your GFCI with no ground, just hot and neutral of cord, and if you got the extra recep as well, wire that to the protection side of the gfci with 14 awg thhn/thwn or tw or something 14 awg.

Put it all together. If you really want to, you can place a inline 250VAC 15 or 10 amp slow blow fuse in there, I would recommend it.
Now you got yourself a ungrounded gfci power tap without violating any code, breaking any laws or setting your home on fire. Great thing about this is, you can take it with you when you leave.

Logic here is the same as using a power strip or PDC, except you got gfci and no ground, and two prong plug.

[stj]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

btw,
do you have any varifiable grounding points?
like copper water or gas pipes that stay copper all the way through the meters down into the ground?

[Uniballer]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Like the others, I can't recommend that you mess with the electric wiring.

My dad's house was built in the late 20's or '30s. Most of the outlets are only 2 prong (i.e. there is no safety ground). However, the original wiring in the house is all carried in BX cable (flexible metallic conduit), and so the metal boxes in the walls are grounded. An appropriate lug screwed to a tapped hole in a box can provide a reasonable ground. It might even meet code to do that.

OTOH my aunt has a house built in the '50s that was wired with early Romex cable with no ground wire. There is no way to get a ground in that house without running new cable.

[SteveNielsen]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Well, that is not entirely true, you can make a good ground circuit as stj indicated in his question about plumbing, and doing so would not necessarily be illegal as long as it is done external to the existing wiring (i.e. does not modify the house wiring). It is done all the time in Ham radio and there is nothing wrong with it as long as it is done correctly.

It is best to use a real ground rod, driven into the ground and your home may already have one in place outside. However concerning plumbing ONLY use a cold water galvanized pipe at a point close to where it is actually buried underground as a ground source and there are a few DO NOTs to bear in mind:

Do NOT use a gas pipe. Some fittings used in gas lines are plastic, also a spark could ignite the gas.
Do NOT use a hot water pipe. They are usually insulated from the cold water inlet at the heater tank connections. Water itself is not that good of a conductor for a good ground path.
Do NOT use a copper water pipe. They often use compression fittings with plastic rings, especially in repair work.

[stj]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

really?
copper with plastic seals is pretty shit.
in Europe the standards require either soldered joints (lead free and non-toxic flux) or brass compression joints with a copper "olive".
no rubber or plastic inserts allowed afaik.

[SteveNielsen]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

I don't know if the plastic ring comp fittings are allowed in new construction here either but they are certainly used in repairs. Also to consider is in what pipe your water main is. If it's plastic pipe it has no use as a ground. If it's galvanized steel there is likely some method of preventing dis-similar metal electrolysis between zinc and copper.

[stj]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

how can you have galvanized steel?
if it's galvanised on the inside then it can poison the water with zinc.
if not then it can rust.

i'v seen chrome-plated copper pipe - plating only on the outside.
that's common in bathrooms where you cant hide the pipes.

[SteveNielsen]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Elementary zinc does not react with water molecules. Galvanized iron and steel pipe has been used in water plumbing for ages. If lead was used in the galvanization process then the lead will get into the water, but not necessarily zinc. At neutral pH zinc is not water soluble. AFAIK these days galvanization is simply a hot dip in molten zinc, no lead.

[Mad_Professor]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Well, that is not entirely true, you can make a good ground circuit as stj indicated in his question about plumbing, and doing so would not necessarily be illegal as long as it is done external to the existing wiring (i.e. does not modify the house wiring). It is done all the time in Ham radio and there is nothing wrong with it as long as it is done correctly.

It is best to use a real ground rod, driven into the ground and your home may already have one in place outside. However concerning plumbing ONLY use a cold water galvanized pipe at a point close to where it is actually buried underground as a ground source and there are a few DO NOTs to bear in mind:

Do NOT use a gas pipe. Some fittings used in gas lines are plastic, also a spark could ignite the gas.
Do NOT use a hot water pipe. They are usually insulated from the cold water inlet at the heater tank connections. Water itself is not that good of a conductor for a good ground path.
Do NOT use a copper water pipe. They often use compression fittings with plastic rings, especially in repair work.

A recent NEC change disallows receptacle external grounding to water pipes unless it's the first 5' of pipe from service entrance, which is used for the ground electrode system.

The thought here is, plumbers today are using more non-metallic fittings and pipe that could break the ground path leaving the receptacle ungrounded.

Also the NEC forbids running a separate ground outside of a branch circuit cable or raceway, unless used for communication like a radio antenna or satellite dish or on branch extensions that can connect to the 5' of GES.

[redwire]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

I replaced my outlets, in my 1953 condo, because they simply wore out and you cannot buy two-prong duplex outlets anymore. I couldn't find them for sale. This might be something to push with your landlord, unless he has a cache of old ones.

Consulting with electricians, for a multi-family dwelling (apartment) Canadian Electrical Code requires metal conduit/armored cable (no Loomex), so the box should be grounded. You can verify (as I did) with an ohmmeter between a water line (older buildings used copper) and the box. I found they were grounded. But you have a duplex...

In a similar situation (1950's house), I found they actually used three-wire NMD (green paper+tar jacket) but the ground was cut and not used. I was able to solder a 14GA extension on the stub and use that.

[delaware74b]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Late 50's and early 60's saw the introduction of grounded outlet circuits, starting in the kitchens. My advise is to pick up a plug-in outlet tester like this:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_464309-295-4...3D1&facetInfo=

It will tell you if your outlets are wired properly and if the ground is intact where you already have 3-slot devices.
I worked on several houses of that era and over half had grounds throughout the houses. One house was 100% original (all 2-slot devices) and was fully grounded. There is a test that can be done to see if you have grounds in the boxes.

[momaka]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Looks like I stirred up the beehive .

and NEVER tie earth to the N line.

because it may not be what you think!!!

That's what I was thinking too. If there is a fault with the power lines outside the house, then probably better to have Ground floating.
I'll take that as the answer to my question, thanks.

You can install GFCI but you would not have any ground for fault stray current to go but that's ok since the gfci will trip if there is difference of 0.05 amps between line and load, giving you only a minor shock before it kicks off.

Yes, that's what I've been reading online as well. Most likely what I will end up doing as well.

If you tie the ground to neutral and the neutral breaks later down the line well your appliances become hot waiting for someone or something to ground to.

True.
Although leaving ground unconnected isn't exactly optimal either. In particular, the safety Y caps between L, N, and G in a PC PSU form a voltage divider. With G floating, you'll have about half of the line voltage, though the current from this voltage divider should be very low if someone was to touch a grounded object and the case of said PSU. With multiple computers and equipment (as would be my case), I'll have to check how bad that can get, though.

In any case, for the time being, leaving ground floating still sounds better. In fact, it's nothing new to me. Every time I go in Europe and have to plug in my laptop, I regularly use a 2-prong Schuko-to-NEMA Type A adapter, and the ground pin is left floating.

Get yourself some quality cheater plugs...

I'm not to keen on that idea.
It essentially accomplishes the same thing as a ungrounded 3-prong non-GFCI outlet. So what's the benefit? Plus, finding a good quality cheater plug probably won't come cheap, not to mention I'll probably need several. What's worse is if get one that appears "quality" but isn't. I've seen plenty of cheap and not-so-cheap overseas conversion adapters develop loose and burnt contacts. I'd rather have properly-installed non-GFCI non-grounded 3-prong outlets. Illegal - sure. Still safer than quality cheater adapter - likely.
Remember, I'll have at least two computers and a laser printer (possibly other equipment as well). I want a good connection.

The outlets in the apartment all use screws to hold the L and N wires - no backstab nonsense. Wire from the wall is copper and appears to be 14 AWG. The plugs I have (both the GFCI and non-GFCI) use screws as well. So the connection should be very solid.

... or tell them to have electrician come out and change the receptacle for you, or find a better apartment.

Easier said than done.

As nice as my landlord is, there aren't many places around the university area for this price and this well maintained. He's not a DIY type of guy, so he probably would have to call an electrician, and I'd rather not get on his nervers for such a small thing.

And believe me, I have looked for over a year now. Most places are straight up shit holes, rented to reckless college students who get drunk/high on a daily basis and trash everything. My former roommate's new place is a wreck just about to fall in on itself. It's not the only one on the block either.

Frankly what I would do is just a get a 1900 box, and one gfci recep
(this is optional) plus one plain receptacle, with respective cover for box and 14 awg SJOOW with cord connector or clamp for box and then get a 1-15P plug. Don't connect the ground of the SJOOW on either end, since it's pointless nothing for it to ground out to. Wire up your GFCI with no ground, just hot and neutral of cord, and if you got the extra recep as well, wire that to the protection side of the gfci with 14 awg thhn/thwn or tw or something 14 awg.

Put it all together. If you really want to, you can place a inline 250VAC 15 or 10 amp slow blow fuse in there, I would recommend it.
Now you got yourself a ungrounded gfci power tap without violating any code, breaking any laws or setting your home on fire. Great thing about this is, you can take it with you when you leave.

Good idea.
Will keep it in mind. Although, to be honest, I'm still more keen on modifying the outlets myself, even if it is illegal.
As I mentioned, everything will be temporary, and I will restore all of the outlets back to their original condition before I leave the place for the next tenant.

do you have any varifiable grounding points?

Will have to check.
As stated in my first post, there are a few GFCI outlets installed in the kitchen and one in the living room for the window AC unit. These *may* have ground as they seem to have been added on with a remodel and at least some of the wiring appeared external as far as I remember.
The other points that *likely* have a ground are the COAX cable outlets and a water valve at the back of the hosue (the water valve has a small wire tied to it that goes to the telephone line box and possibly also the COAX). I'll have to go out again when I go back there and verify.

Well, that is not entirely true, you can make a good ground circuit as stj indicated in his question about plumbing, and doing so would not necessarily be illegal as long as it is done external to the existing wiring (i.e. does not modify the house wiring). It is done all the time in Ham radio and there is nothing wrong with it as long as it is done correctly.

Well, I probably won't be installing any ground. It's not my house, and I don't intend to modify it too much. Everything I do will have to be removable and/or reversible, be it legal or illegal. I just don't want to have a fire hazard, that's all. And, of course, nothing that "shocks" people.
With good craftsmanship, I'm pretty sure my "handiwork" will be fine.

Do NOT use a copper water pipe. They often use compression fittings with plastic rings, especially in repair work.

First time I hear about that as well.
When we remodeled our bathroom in our house last year, we used brass compression nuts and rings ONLY. I never even though this plastic BS even existed. Like stj, I am quite surprised.
Thanks for noting, though. Useful to know.

Galvanized iron and steel pipe has been used in water plumbing for ages.

+1
Go to just about any place in Easter Europe that was built before the last 10-15 years, and you are very likely to find galvanized iron pipes everywhere. They have been in use since the early 70's, if not even earlier. Most places nowadays use PVC, though that's for the inside of the apartment only. Not sure about the entire building. Possibly still galvanized iron.

Do not do any electrical modifications on the wiring in the apartment. Contact the Landlord if something is wrong. Most States would consider what you are wanting to do as attempted arson.

Your advice is sound, but just not applicable in my case because there is nothing wrong with the existing wiring. It's just a nuisance, and I am afraid my landlord won't be willing to fix it or it will take a while before he calls someone that does (which is not an option either).
As far as the "attempted arson" bit - fuck the law. As long as everyone is safe and happy (myself included), I couldn't care less.

Also, I forgot to mention... probably the most important thing so far in terms of safety:
I checked the electrical panel before even agreeing to sign the contract and it's NOT made by FPE or Zinsco.

[Mad_Professor]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

All right your choice, I probably do the same thing in your shoes.

Check for a ground conductor or test the box for ground before you buy anything. You might get lucky.

[SteveNielsen]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Here's an example of what I meant about plastic compression fittings. This one is a push-lock type but I've seen threaded cap types too.

[chozo4]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

I would suggest getting the outlet tester as suggested and find out for sure. I lived in a motel for a few years where even though it had 3 prong nonGFCI outlets they were actually not legal according to code. They all tested as either having no ground, a ground fault, or ground tied to neutral instead. The only one that had a proper ground was the 120v socket wired for the Air Conditioner, microwave, and fridge at the same time.

The owners of the place loved us.. as we tripped the breaker at least once a week since the whole room was connected to a single 20Amp breaker. That one breaker included the AC, Fridge, Microwave, lights, everything else we had plugged in such as 2 full desktop systems. Would always pop the breaker when we used either the microwave and or our toaster, portable buffet range, or coffee pot at the same time.

Honestly, the place was an electrical fire just begging to happen but the prices were what kept us there. $700/month with all utilities,wifi, and cable included except for laundry.

[stj]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

Here's an example of what I meant about plastic compression fittings. This one is a push-lock type but I've seen threaded cap types too.

i'v seen crap like that in 100% plastic,
but it's only allowed for low diameter heating pipes such as underfloor networks.

you cant run cold water or drinking water through them.

[stj]

Re: To ground or not to ground… that is the question

the safety Y caps between L, N, and G in a PC PSU form a voltage divider. With G floating, you'll have about half of the line voltage, though the current from this voltage divider should be very low if someone was to touch a grounded object and the case of said PSU. With multiple computers and equipment (as would be my case), I'll have to check how bad that can get, though.

IT FUCKING HURTS!

ask any tv or satellite installer.
when your up a ladder working on a grounded mount and you touch the coax you fucking know it!!!

btw,
take 2 bits of video or computer equipment with no earthing,

power them up and stroke a wire between the shielded connectors on them.
on computers this would be the serial/parallel ports for example.

or the scart/phono's between a tv and say a stb.
you often see agressive sparking!!!