18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

[infringer]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

I remember when I had purchased some e2 energizer batteries from china as well non lithium when I would throw them on my quick charger with a cooler the cells would get extremely hot yet they looked exactly the same as my label and after 1 charge like that I tossed them...

I believe a good majority of these incidents are rouge manufacturing practices some put forward by individuals trying to pull off a "CON" to try and steal your money. Some pulled off by corporations trying to make other corporations look bad. And some by corporations trying to cut corners and outsell the competition but it leads to failure somewhere along the line most always.

Interesting though that I have this same battery about a dozen of them brand new sitting around just waiting to explode was going to get a nice flashlight myself for these batteries but on second thought I may just eat the cost on these and stick with drill based IMR type cells as they seem to be safer than the other types of cells.

I did read somewhere that the 18650 lithium cells once you go over the 1500mah mark you do have a potential explosion factor that comes into play with these cells so might be mindful to stay within this mark for these cells although I do see sony and panasonic like to use 2000mah cells for drills that are high drain so something may have changed in the chemistry or makeup of their cells that allow for them to be a bit safer but if you will note most drills use a figure between 1300 -1500 mah why anyone would possibly need more energy storage for a flashlight is beyond me but if you need more run a couple of cells in parallel and stay safe.

I find it odd that you stumbled across this weblink and then you saved the link and visited the page again later and it was gone very strange as to why you had this happen.
It is possible that we should stay away from all of the "FIRE" brands from surefire all the way through backfire :P

I think in this day and age replica goods are rather easy to produce and their are cons made like this all the time. Money can be a very motivational thing especially when you have little of it and live in poverty like conditions. China has been known for these practices. But this is not just limited to china many of the countries on the asia pacific rim are responsible for the same thing and even other countries do these types of things believe it or not!!!

Heck about a year ago or so I don't know if you remember the dog food that was found to have plastic filler in it and killed and made a lot of pets sick and this was all top brand dog food the big names.

Just one month ago one of the biggest beef suppliers overseas was caught putting horse meat in with the beef some people may say that they eat horse meat and so on so forth but guess what their is vaccines that horses take that can cause deadly effects on humans and the health risk is huge and it is through these vaccines that they find the horse meat in the products.

Personally I think any time something like this happens the supplier should be banned from selling things in the US and if the corporation that gets the stuff from suppliers has to be held accountable as well after several strikes against them as well because it is possible that these suppliers could be working with the corporation as a fall guy to take all the heat for the corporations idea.

Same with the capacitor plague that this forum exposes very well.

There will always be a chance that no matter what you buy it may be a rip off it don't matter if the brand is well known or not! I am sure that millions upon millions of these fire brands are distributed across the world and while I do sympathize with your friend and his conditions I must say from a percentage point this type of incident is a rather isolated incident and it is a good thing. For the most part I will maintain that lithium-ion batteries are safe but it may be wise to stick with batteries of a rating of 1500mah or less possibly 2000mah in the 18650 form factor.

I would tell you to stay away from asian made batteries but the problem with that is all of them no matter what the brand come from this region as they have the highest stores of lithium that has been discovered in the world thus far... And if I remember correctly the biggest store was found in a mountain in this region. It may be safer to use a reputable name but I think labels for other brands could be made even easier than trustfire seeing as how they are "nonmetallic" it is possible that making holographic labels might thwart thieves from these types of activities but as technology progresses I don't see this as holding true forever but for a while it would work!

Stay safe people educate yourself here and beyond.

[kc8adu]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

elevated risks when buying shit brands.
basicly anything with fire in the name except surefire.
example.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...000mA-exploded
this came to mind this morning when a neighbor called me to let me know his new ebay cheap n nasty light turned into a pipe bomb this morning. shot the tailcap through the wall.
some brands i have seen are
trustfire
ultrafire
superfire
multiplefire
spiderfire
dynafire
fandyfire
and a few others that may come to mind later.
these all get lumped into the shit catagory since they are not real brands.
i once stumbled into a china goods website where one could buy bulk labels for all the common fire brands.
i guess that was an oversight on their part as later when i went back via bookmark it was marked forbidden.

[infringer]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

Ok guess spot welders for battery packs seem to be the best option but you can solder them with some success.

Soldering Lithium Cells (Info I have gathered and is just for informational purpose again I or anyone else on this forum is not responsible for anything that may result in using this information as much of it is second hand knowledge. Doing anything of the sort will be done with your own risk):

- It is dangerous
- It is very easy to have cold solder joints make sure to test each joint with some pulling or tugging/twisting after joint creation.
- You should not use an iron under 40w
- Your temp should be high when soldering
- A flux pen or flux paste may help
- Roughing up the ends of the cell with some sand paper may help be sure to clean the ends after roughing with a dry cloth.
- Tin the tab and ends of the cell before attempting to join the two together wait for 1 minute between tinning the ends of the cell to keep the temps low.
- ANY TIME YOU APPLY SOLDER DO NOT HOLD IRON ON THE BATTERY FOR MORE THAN A COUPLE OF SECONDS!
- CONSTANTLY MONITOR TEMPERATURE OF THE CELL
- KEEP A STAINLESS STEEL OR CAST IRON SOUP POT NEAR BY IN CASE THE CELL STARTS GETTING TOO HOT IF IT FEELS FAIRLY HOT TO TOUCH THROW THE PACK IN YOUR STAINLESS OR CAST IRON SOUP POT AND PUT THE POT AND WAIT IT OUT UNTIL THE CELL COOLS ONCE COOL CAREFULLY REMOVE THE CELL AND RECYCLE IT!

[infringer]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

Great thanks for the response yeah the stainless steel pot in a bigger stainless steal bowl in the stainless steel pot would be better good idea actually should contain any mishaps fairly well and put a water barrier between for extra safety why not seems ok to me I'll have to pick up some more stainless mixing bowls so the other half don't get mad when she see's batteries inside of it lol!

This post is an information gathering post so far.

I believe that a lot about lithium has been cleared up in this posting and some safety measures were discovered that can help people work a bit smarter when they are determined to play with their battery packs. I feel such information should be published a bit more to be honest to educate people on the dangers of lithium as well as the possibilities and safety precautions that they could take to ensure the highest level of safety.

Thank you all ....

I do have one more question though I do find that soldering these cells at times can be a rather painfully slow and tedious process... Does anyone have any pointers on soldering the packs? Type of solder to use? Things to do to ensure a more solid connection to the anode and cathode of the battery such as tabbing or something similar or maybe even flux.

I find that solder does stick but with enough pressure you can almost certainly always bust it off.

It appears that a pack purchased brand new seems to be spot welded or something along them lines what do you do to get a good hold please share!

[LLLlllou]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

From the videos I watched with lithium they add it to water and it reacts by creating hydrogen but any amount of heat is quickly disappated by the water will the same happen with one of these batteries or will it blow up ?

Pure metalic Lithium will explode, the lithium in a battery is not in a pure metalic state, so I doubt it would explode. Still, I wouldn't want it to come into contact with water while I'm sleeping in the next room.

I guess if I set them in a dry cast iron pot or pan will this work or does this too have a reaction similar to say thermite....

No, cast iron should be fine. Maybe put the battery in the stainless bowl, then the bowl in the cast iron pot with water in between. The battery isn't getting through the stainless bowl no matter what. The water would absorb plenty of heat and distribute it to the cast iron pot to keep it cool enough not to burn anything. Now this is all assuming a burning battery, of course if it explodes and throws burning lithium 20 feet across the room . . . well, you get the picture.

I do remember the potassium and water thing in science class but I don't recall a lot about lithium from science class very interesting stuff it is though.

Go straight down column 1 on the periodic table from Lithium to Francium, they all do naughty things in water.

The other neat thing is the zinc air battery I guess that one is pretty dang explosive too... If I recall they were using some of them for hearing aids or something a rather dangerous thing to have in your ear no?

Never heard of one exploding, but that would definitely not be the best place to have one explode.

UPDATE BELOW:

If the battery gets very hot, immediately remove the device from proximity to flammable materials and bring it to a non-combustible surface. If at all possible, put a disintegrating laptop or cell phone outdoors and let it burn out. If the fire occurs in an airplane, FAA tells flight attendants not to use fire extinguishers but specify water or pop (soda). Water cools the adjacent material and prevents the fire from spreading. Many research laboratories and factories also use water to put out battery fires. Allow good ventilation while the battery burns itself out. ****Li-ion contains no lithium metal and does not react with water.**** A fire with batteries containing lithium metal requires a different extinguishing method.

Ah, OK, so at least one source says water is OK.

Source: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...ns_with_li_ion

After reading this it appears my procedure is safe would this be correct in assuming that I am reading this right? It is a lithium ion cell correct or is the naming that I am reading wrong or something else wrong?

No, you're correct, all rechargeable lithium cells are lithium ion.

All rechargeable batteries 18650 seem to be LI-ION from what I can tell.

Please advise....

[infringer]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

@ LLLlllou

No I guess I was not entirely pervy to the chemistry info of it but thanks for the heads up...

Will have to find a safer alternative I suppose than water I do recall a class 5 fire extinguisher or something along them lines was needed...

Like I say make sure you are safe but this is a perfect example of being undereducated about lithium like I said 2 weeks of reading and testing I surely do not know it all and it is the reason for my discussion to see if there is something important I am missing.

This is very important.

Are you aware of any safer alternative liquids that I could use for cooling?

From the videos I watched with lithium they add it to water and it reacts by creating hydrogen but any amount of heat is quickly disappated by the water will the same happen with one of these batteries or will it blow up ?

I thought the whole purpose of the vent was to stop pressure from being with held in the battery? so it will vent out ...

I guess if I set them in a dry cast iron pot or pan will this work or does this too have a reaction similar to say thermite....

My main goal here is learning enough not to be too dangerous lol

I have been trying fairly hard to get all of the i's dotted but I'm sure there is one or two I will miss.

Anyone else care to share what they actually do for safety with a newly charged cell until they are sure that it does not discharge do to dendrites?

I think now would be a good time to share I am glad that people are there to give pointers on me being wrong either in clarifications or measurements but please do help me out by either.

A: Correcting the mistake to make this thread more safe for others to read.
B: Providing a known solution to the said problem.

The whole purpose of this form is to share knowledge, findings, and in return get knowledge or further your understanding.

I do really appreciate the help with this that I have gotten from everyone and I hope it helps others that set down the same path a very good discussion indeed.

I do remember the potassium and water thing in science class but I don't recall a lot about lithium from science class very interesting stuff it is though.

The other neat thing is the zinc air battery I guess that one is pretty dang explosive too... If I recall they were using some of them for hearing aids or something a rather dangerous thing to have in your ear no?

UPDATE BELOW:

If the battery gets very hot, immediately remove the device from proximity to flammable materials and bring it to a non-combustible surface. If at all possible, put a disintegrating laptop or cell phone outdoors and let it burn out. If the fire occurs in an airplane, FAA tells flight attendants not to use fire extinguishers but specify water or pop (soda). Water cools the adjacent material and prevents the fire from spreading. Many research laboratories and factories also use water to put out battery fires. Allow good ventilation while the battery burns itself out. ****Li-ion contains no lithium metal and does not react with water.**** A fire with batteries containing lithium metal requires a different extinguishing method.

Source: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...ns_with_li_ion

After reading this it appears my procedure is safe would this be correct in assuming that I am reading this right? It is a lithium ion cell correct or is the naming that I am reading wrong or something else wrong?

All rechargeable batteries 18650 seem to be LI-ION from what I can tell.

Please advise....

[budm]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

never mind, wrong post.

[LLLlllou]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

sitting in a small bowl inside a larger stainless steel bowl of water for safety. This way if it gets hot enough to melt the plastic bowl it will fall into the larger stainless steel bowl filled with water to instantly bring a cooling effect to the cell...

You DO know what happens when Lithium comes into contact with water, right?

[sam_sam_sam]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

I really wish there were an easier way to accomplish this without removing the cells as that is the dangerous part of it ... I wonder if there is something I could do without cutting a trace or removing the cells to accomplish this.... .

There is if you have a de-soldering station you have to heat the tabs on the board until ALL of the solder has melted and suck all solder up then VERY carefully pry the board a little to make sure that the tab is loose then go to the next one and do the same thing......>>>>>>
BE VERY CARE FULL DOING THIS NOT TO SHORT THE TRACE ON THE BOARD when I was doing one these battery packs this happen to me on the first one I did

This will NOT WORK if you try use a soldering wick to do this job

I know fets and voltage regulators are very sensitive to static and such but I do wonder if I could use a more sturdy replacement part If this is the case I'll have to research this a bit more before I click the buy button.


Thanks for sharing your info any more info is welcomed.

There might be but the most imported thing is not to keep over loading your tool the three tools that will do this most is the 1/2" impact gun [the 1/4" can also be a problem if running a lot of very long screws and do a lot of them] and grinder and the saw all tool the drill can also can do this as well if you keep stalling the drill motor


I hope this helps

[infringer]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

Well what is happening is the output of the batteries is perfect but the output to the posts on the stem of the battery are only 12v I have two batteries like this... Explain this to me so what you are saying is that the fets are what are causing this issue I suppose it is very possible they are causing a lack of power if there is something wrong with them it is a common part the only reason I assumed the thermostat is because a trace from the thermostat looked a little bubbled up so I tried to jumper direct from the thermostat and make my own line with a wire.... Didn't work so I assumed there was an issue I suppose I could have just heated it up checked the data sheets and seen the resistance under different temps I just wanted to get stuff going this weekend in case I did not have the time during the week or next weekend...

I'll order a couple of fets as there is two per pack and give them a shot I really wish there were an easier way to accomplish this without removing the cells as that is the dangerous part of it ... I wonder if there is something I could do without cutting a trace or removing the cells to accomplish this.... I know fets and voltage regulators are very sensitive to static and such but I do wonder if I could use a more sturdy replacement part if this is the case I'll have to research this a bit more before I click the buy button.


Thanks for sharing your info any more info is welcomed.

[sam_sam_sam]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

Also I attached some pictures of the modification to get the BMS board working if you have the proper voltages at the battery bank while I do not recommend it as a finished product it is a good way to test if something has went wrong on your board likely I suspect that in many cases it will be your thermostat which looks like a little black bead or ir sensor on lithium+ hanging on the side of your battery under a pad and for lithium standard batteries it is a white box looking thing underneath the middle battery P103 variation...

.

I repair these battery pack as well and the modification that you doing should ONLY be done as a TEST

The big problem with these boards is that the mofet on the heat sinks go partly bad if you load the tool a little to much the board has to reset
and when push the power button again it might run a little bit and shut down again keep do this a few time

When you replace the mosfets on the board the board work the right way again I have three battery pack right now I have to repair all with the same problem

When the board work right if you over load the battery pack with a real heavy load it shut down until you release the power switch on the tool when you push the switch it should restart again right away unless your battery pack is real warm then it will not restart right away

The Digikey part # for the mosfet is IRF1404PBF-ND....> IRF1404 or IRF1404Z I have look at both data sheet for both part # I do not any thing that different some battery packs use one or the part #

[sam_sam_sam]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

Also I attached some pictures of the modification to get the BMS board working if you have the proper voltages at the battery bank while I do not recommend it as a finished product it is a good way to test if something has went wrong on your board likely I suspect that in many cases it will be your thermostat which looks like a little black bead or ir sensor on lithium+ hanging on the side of your battery under a pad and for lithium standard batteries it is a white box looking thing underneath the middle battery P103 variation...

.

I repair these battery pack as well and the modification that you doing should ONLY be done as a TEST

The big problem with these boards is that the mofet on the heat sinks go partly bad if you load the tool a little to much the board has to reset

When you replace the mosfets on the board the board work the right way again I have three battery pack right now I have to repair all with the same problem

PLEASE NOTE THAT WHEN CHANGING THE MOSFETS on these board you MUST remove the batteries from the board and take your time when do doing this not to short the battery cells

[infringer]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

errr yes could you please correct that 1.3 to 1.8v man o man that could be trouble .... Going to have to start rechecking stuff a bit better before posting...

Starting at 0v means the capacity before being woken up which happens almost instantly after power is applied.

If the voltage is below 1.5 it is toast I have read somewhere and elsewhere I have read that if it is below 3v it is toast and here I have read that if it below 2v it is toast all I can share is from my trials is that if it below 1.5v it will not take and hold a charge as this is the number that I have went with there is so much conflicting information with lithium cells and this is I guess what I am trying to sort out...


But it would help to clarify stuff correctly when measuring and than typing so if it is below either way it is your choice on who to believe but for safety I would stick with if it is not above 3v but for my own personal testing I have found that many cells above 1.5 will take and hold a charge for well going on a week now for some of the batteries I have been monitoring the cells daily looking for drops in voltage I have only had a couple that dropped more than .2v as I have stated and any of them that have dropped are off to the recyclers.

[infringer]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

As long as the cells are within .2v not 2v could a moderator please correct the statement above to reflect this on my previous post thanks!

Here are some pics of the safety precautions used...

Also I attached some pictures of the modification to get the BMS board working if you have the proper voltages at the battery bank while I do not recommend it as a finished product it is a good way to test if something has went wrong on your board likely I suspect that in many cases it will be your thermostat which looks like a little black bead or ir sensor on lithium+ hanging on the side of your battery under a pad and for lithium standard batteries it is a white box looking thing underneath the middle battery P103 variation...

One thing to note some newer P103 batteries have the same cells used in lithium plus batteries which are LG based... So essentially it is a lithium+ without the fuel gauge. I like the look of the lithium+ batteries better as far as operation goes and durability I will say from my tests the p103 non lithium+ battery seems to be more durable than the P107 lithium+ battery and for the record it appears that all double pack ryobi batteries are the worst when it comes to durability an educated guess would be the heat that is causing them to fail more batteries more heat and confined space lowers the life span. I would rather walk a block and change my batteries a couple of times a day than have a battery that will last only 2/3 of the life span.

Anyhow just sharing my findings with everyone as I always maintain extreme measures of safety are required when dealing with these batteries people have died and have been seriously injured trying to learn about different types of energy storage technologies. Always consider the risk it is very possible to lose an eyeball or something more when dealing with these batteries if you do not adhere to safety measures even sometimes when you do.

[infringer]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

yes of course after they wake up I check the voltage immediately anything above 1.5v I charged.... I read somewhere 1.5v was the magic number ... (I could be wrong here but so far so good no issues...)

Usually dendrites will show as the battery will discharge after a few hours but I wait a couple of days to be sure... as long as the cell is within .2v or 4.0v to 4.2v after 2-3 days of sitting in a small bowl inside a larger stainless steel bowl of water for safety. This way if it gets hot enough to melt the plastic bowl it will fall into the larger stainless steel bowl filled with water to instantly bring a cooling effect to the cell... I have read this as well and so far the information has been accurate.

Interesting facts that I found about temps though are:

Should the pressure rise further, a safety membrane bursts open at 3,450kPa (500psi) and the cell might eventually vent with flame. The thermal runaway moves lower when the battery is fully charged; for Li-cobalt this threshold is between 130–150C°C (266–302°F), nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) is 170–180°C (338–356°F), and manganese is 250°C (482°F). Li-phosphate enjoys similar and better temperature stabilities than manganese.

Obviously though thermal run away cannot be prevented in some cases so I exercise extra safety precautions because of this ...

UL has made it so that lithium cells in production have to pass a "nail puncture test" this test is exactly what it say they have to be safe when being punctured by a nail...

I was wrong in stating the battery was 0v once woken up it was at 1.8v please accept this correction but yes this battery would not rise in voltage so it is indeed bad as the voltage rise should be rather quick in the beginning within the first minute you should see a rise in voltage if you do not pull it off and recycle the cell. And as a safety I use an ir thermometer at all times or if I run out of battery I pull out the temperature meter and tape a lead on to the batteries surface.

Trust me safety is a grave concern for me in learning about these cells... Soldering the cells is done in intervals constantly monitoring the temperature of the cells being careful to not cause any sparks or arcs that could potentially set the batteries hydrogen off gas if there is any ablaze this is nothing for a typical person without a lot of the proper tools I will admit in my first attempts I did cause an arc on one of my packs and I jumped about 5ft back in my chair and about crapped my pants since then I am extra cautious I electrical tape leads that could be shorted. There is no such thing as too much safety when dealing with these cells this I think we all can agree on.

[kc8adu]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

WARNING!!!!
do not charge 0v cells.
they are damaged and may fail violently later.they grow dendrites and may later short just sitting there.and the ptc and bms wont save you.
when i tear down packs for cells i toss anything below 2v.
soa for li-ion is 2.0v-4.2v.
some newer cells higher.

yeah may be oddly I was able to recharge some cells that were showing 0v 4 out of 5 of them actually one of them would not go above 1.3v and started getting warm I monitored the thing with a meter and a IR thermometer the whole time it was charging just to be safe so hours of looking at batteries is not my idea of fun lol but my rig was primitive a meter and a 5v 500ma charger hacked up with some gator clips screwed to a hunk of 2x12 the voltage held at 3.6v and it is about 9hours that has passed so I assume the cells are still good and they just fell asleep well 4 out of 5 of them. We will see I got a 18650 usb charger on order from xtar to safely top them off using the word safely loosely cause I will have to pay attention to it and make sure it doesn't overcharge the cell I will likely charge inside of an old computer case just to somewhat contain anything that may happen from topping them off but the cells look as good as new or I would not have even attempted it.

Finally I will say that the cell will not take a charge if it shows 5 v and does not change when your leads touch the battery's anode and cathode.

Do not try this I take no responsibility for anyone trying this I did this in a well contained and safe area with a fire extinguisher near by that is suited for this type of fire. Do not try it at home!

[infringer]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

The little white brick underneath the middle battery is a thermostat...

I did a little testing with my drill put some real torque on it and the exterior plastic casing after holding the chuck on drill got mighty hot 125 degrees F so I'm thinking it may just be best to replace the thermostat rather than jumper the battery bank... To the battery output I can see there is an inherent danger not letting the pack run as it is supposed to through the board.

@BudM I am curious if you have ever got that picture taken?

[infringer]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

Got my battery pack working with the BMS issue I am thinking it is a bad thermostat that is cutting the voltage down to 12v for instance when you really heat up your drill with tons of drilling and it overheats and shuts down until it cools off like 2 seconds later I think what it does is cuts the voltage down to 12v on the drill to make it inoperable something similar to a thermistor just packaged a bit different than what I am used to ... The only worry is not having this piece in play could be dangerous so I am going to mark that battery so I know not to jam on it too much.

[kc8adu]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

its 2s so 8.4v at 2900mah.

[selldoor]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

Tablet update

Hi - Thanks for the input
Wasnt really going to say much about the tablet - there are quite a few tablet forums and most problems seem to be from people trying to flash them.
Anyway as you have asked it is an aged Kyoto TAB May as well be NONAME
Processor is WM8650 and Board is M010SM_2V3 dated 2011.11.03.
Battery is a twinpack -Has a long number beginning with LB01 that doesnt google and another PL055060P 2900mAh 3.7 voltage without load is 8.33vdc so I guess this means the pair will be a respectable 5800 mAh.
Wallwart multivoltage adapter I used does 9v at 1000ma.
Whilst initially the led was flashing red on connecting the charger when applied for longer the red led stays constant , then when fully charged goes out.
The battery did not feel very warm when being charged. The mains adapter I would say was at its usually temperature.
When the tablet was switched on the led was green.
I left it playing a slideshow and it ran for at least 2 hours (forgot to keep checking it ) which, whilst not great, is a good start and very acceptable for a freeby.
When re inserting the charger it did not do the red flashing but went straight to constant red, so perhaps the red flashing was pulsing start for a battery that had been "flat" for a while.
I will put it back together and see how it does with video and wifi.