Holy crap my house could have caught fire!

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

I'll keep this quick as i forgot to charge my laptop and i had to cut the power.

We had an alarm system installed some years ago in our apartment. Since a few weeks we've been hearing sparks in the fuse box and called the electrical department. They were supposed to come today. Typical of them, they didn't.

It started again tonight so i got a chair and climbed to the fuse box to shut some of the stuff down. I flipped the wrong one so i flipped it back, and as soon as i did that i saw the wiring in the wall catch fire.

Needless to say my reaction was to throw the main breaker instantly and the orange glow faded out. Upon close inspection with flashlight it turns out that the security firm who installed the alarm put it before the main breaker with one of the ugliest wiring jobs i've ever seen. The wiring couldn't cope with the demands of the washing machine and melted over time. And it was damn near catching fire. I wonder, do those security guys also sell fire insurance???

Also the wiring is before the power meter and fuse box, so if the electrical department doesn't come tomorrow i can fix it myself without losing any warranties.

[kaboom]

Re: Holy crap my house could have caught fire!

That's like the hacks who call themselves "air conditioning techs" over here. Panel is full and too lazy to install a sub panel or don't want to pull permit, so they'll just tap the feeder for the condenser off the top of the main breaker.

Un-BULL-lievable!

Then you have the soccer moms all scared of 'lectricity- when the Three Stooges, who shouldn't be allowed to so much as twist a wirenut, start playing with things, creating latent hazards.

Your line voltage is 240V, single phase line-to-neutral? Despite what other sources say, we do in fact have 240V here. Resi neighborhoods are usually 120/240 single phase. The 240V secondary of the distribution transfomer has a center tap that is the neutral. Grounded at the first disconnect. In a sub panel, neutral and ground must be separated.

The baby stuff gets 120 from either end of the transformer to the neutral and things like electric dryers, ranges, large power tools, condensing units go across the whole secondary. An open neutral is bad news

Diagram does not apply to 120/208Y 'network' service, as used in metro areas, condos, apt. complexes, etc. And the old delta services were neat- the very same single phase service for houses AND three phase for commercial, all off the same transformer bank! Don't try to get 120 off the high leg!

Just so you know, the POCO will be hesitant to touch anything after the meter. After the meter is your responsibility, at least in the US.

-Paul

[delaware74b]

Re: Holy crap my house could have caught fire!

Just so you know, the POCO will be hesitant to touch anything after the meter. After the meter is your responsibility, at least in the US.

Here, in Delaware, the customer 'owns' everything except the meter head if the service is overhead. If the service is underground, the customer's portion is a bit gray. Typically, the power company will 'meet you' at the top lugs of the meter pan and you own everything except the meter head.
A couple of the local municipalities are willing to bury your service if it's overhead and you're upgrading the service capacity.

I've seen some scary crap from 'Joe the happy homeowner'. One instance, the neutral/grounding bar was installed in the main breaker panel with ONE DRYWALL SCREW! It loosened, overheated, and started the glowing orange bit Unique saw. This happened on a Thanksgiving night with a house full of family, etc. I had to replace and relocate the bar. It's not the worst I've seen nor will it be the last.

[kaboom]

Re: Holy crap my house could have caught fire!

If the service is underground, the customer's portion is a bit gray. Typically, the power company will 'meet you' at the top lugs of the meter pan and you own everything except the meter head. :

That's how it is here with MetEd/FirstEnemy. They'd slap a smart meter in an old rust bucket. We have UG service and the transformer happens to be less than 50 feet away. Reeal niice... unlike some places where you have one 25 or 50kva pole pig for half the block AND the secondary bus is too small/long, like say in Nutley, NJ. The 69/13.2 sub is just a few blocks away...

Craigslist 'service upgrades' are nice, too. Remove that old 60A fuse box, throw up a nice SqD QO or one of those Siemens all-copper panels, but keep the old drop, riser and that short piece of SE/SER from the meter can to the panel. Look- a 200A service! Don't worry about that old AC cable with the loose jacket glowing red during a GF, that's a ->myth<- And the POCO never comes out to replace the drop. Since no permit was pulled, they never know of the supposed upgrade and those old #6's stay.

MWBCs with both hots on the same phase are good too- 'how come my noodles are turning brown?'

Head over to Mike Holt's. Search for the thread "Never in In all my days..." under the NEC sub-forum.
After you digest that, how about those sinks in Iraq that had point-of-use water heaters, where N and G were hooked up to the heater and one phase of the 416Y/240 'grounded' to the local sink! Faucet had 240 on it and water stream had anything from 90 to 240, due to divider effect! It was all floating because of PVC plumbing. On top of that, the genny may have had HRG... No effective fault clearing path, but there sure as hell were 'ground fault paths.'

-Paul

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Holy crap my house could have caught fire!

I'm now back up and running. But it'll be fun so keep reading. The electrical department came and said "it's not our job during program hours" (they probably wanted to be paid for the job). So if we have to pay someone, at least let's pay someone we can trust.

We called a trusted family friend who did most of our house electrical when we renovated the apartment. He fixed it, and the actual cause will baffle you. I don't remember why but the alarm guys had to move the doorbell. Here's the good part. They had drilled a hole to screw the doorbell. RIGHT THRU THE PLASTIC CONDUIT THAT CARRIES THE POWER WIRING. The screw almost hit a phase wire. The doorbell body is sitting on neutral, and the normally open outside switch closes the phase circuit.

You know wires can move when a sudden load is applied. Well, it all started when i accidentally shorted the mains a few months ago, and tripped the breaker. I guess that the surge moved the phase wire just enough to touch the screw under certain conditions... And the potential for a short was created. The burning wire i saw was just a side-effect of an intermittent short between phase and neutral! That's gotta be one of the craziest things i've ever heard about mains wiring... and it happened to me.

[delaware74b]

Re: Holy crap my house could have caught fire!

Y

ou know wires can move when a sudden load is applied. Well, it all started when i accidentally shorted the mains a few months ago, and tripped the breaker. I guess that the surge moved the phase wire just enough to touch the screw under certain conditions... And the potential for a short was created. The burning wire i saw was just a side-effect of an intermittent short between phase and neutral! That's gotta be one of the craziest things i've ever heard about mains wiring... and it happened to me.

Yeah, I know about the wires moving under sudden heavy loading. The local mall has 480V/3 phase delta trash compactors. The wires move in the conduits all the way back to the breaker panels. Also, their parking lot lighting is 480/3 phase and 480/single phase. I had an underground failure in a conduit 10 feet from a pole base. The wires in the panel were hitting the side so hard it sounded like a hammer. The wires were burned 3 feet open when I pulled it out... nothing like salt infiltration plus water plus 480 to keep things interesting.

I don't like the local alarm companies or cable operators and their wiring practices. Always screwing (literally in your case, Unique) something up when they do an installation unless you're watching over their shoulders.

[Krankshaft]

Re: Holy crap my house could have caught fire!

Reeal niice... unlike some places where you have one 25 or 50kva pole pig for half the block AND the secondary bus is too small/long, like say in Nutley, NJ. The 69/13.2 sub is just a few blocks away...

What a bit of serendipity I live in Nutley. Sounds like the setup on my block to a T. I always thought transformers were a bit scarce.

Up until 06 or so we still had old school probably 50s incandescent street lights before they finally upgraded us to low pressure sodium. So I'm not holding my breath about the age of their power distribution infrastructure. At least on my block it probably was designed when people still had 60 amp service panels.

[kaboom]

Re: Holy crap my house could have caught fire!

Here ya go, Unique

Looks like the verizon 'installer' wanted to give that DSL hookup mo' speed!
That was somewhere in PSEG land, as found on microwaves101.

My grandma and grandpa on my mom's side lived on a block, where there was ONE transformer for the _whole_ block. This was the typical Nutley 50's development. All but two of those ornate streetlights are gone. The one at the end of the block was converted to HPS probably 20 years ago. I think the other one was, but was further up the block and I was too lazy to look at it. Poor old things need a good restoration...

As people got more appliances, window and central A/Cs, that poor gray Westinghouse pot couldn't take it. Not sure if it was a CSP or what, but we both know that PSEG thinks fused cutouts are 'not necessary.' Anyway, every summer, every few weeks, occasionally days, they'd lose power for as long as 5 hours. "Did you check your breakers," they told grandma when she called. IT'S THE WHOLE BLOCK! And the next block over had power...

About ten years ago, a 50kVA was put up right in front of the house. All the 'complaints' from old people 'messing with their panels' mysteriously stopped.

We moved Grandma out here in the summer of '09 and I noticed one house with a little problem. You know, how their unbalance current is going up their cold water GEC, across the street, down everyone else's GEC, thru the MBJ and back to the TX thru the good neutrals. Other parallel paths are CATV and telco, possibly the gas.

"Just add some more ground rods" Grab your NEC and find out why that's bull.

All those houses had 60A FPE MLO panels, probably yours too, Krank. But in the late 80's/early 90's, the central AC bug bit. Amazingly, a service upgrade was hardly done- those lug-tapping A/C contractors...

The old FPE panel had to go when Grandma sold her house- new Siemens panel, new meter can, new 2" PVC riser, but I'll bet the #6 drop is still there. Corroded ACSR messenger/neutral and all!

By the way, it'll always be "West Paterson"

"nothing like salt infiltration plus water plus 480 to keep things interesting"
And people think we only got 120 here! The 480 for the compactors is corner grounded I bet.

-Paul

[ben7]

Re: Holy crap my house could have caught fire!

Actually recently near my school an old transformer blew up, it was maybe like 40 years or so old. I didn't get to see it, but it was underground. Not far from my school too is a cool PSEG substation with these HUGE transformers that can be heard within 300 feet of them humming loudly

The fuse panel in my neighbors house shorted, caught fire, and almost burned her house down. The power transformers that supply her house (and like 10 others) are hooked together, one 50kva and one 25kva. Well the 50kva was the second of the same mfg to fail on my street, and it failed under the big short. Poor little 25kva has its red overload light-which is to the left of the LV bushings-on and must be very hot. It still is overloaded and I hope to contact the electric company soon.

The other 50kva failed during a big heat wave with temps up to 110F!
And it was powering my house. All of a sudden the power went off, and I found the transformer to be dead with a tripped CB. Called PSEG and they came out and couldn't get the transformers CB to reset, so they wired us into another nearby transfo temporarily. They came late at night and put up new 50kva chinese transformer. Can't wait till that one fails lolz.

-Ben

[delaware74b]

Re: Holy crap my house could have caught fire!

Curly, the 480 system I'm referring doesn't have a corner ground. Most 3-phase commercial systems in this area have two voltage setups: 120/208 wye or 277/480 delta. There are corner-ground (or open delta) systems but are not as common.

277/480 delta gives you 277 for lighting (each phase to neutral or ground) and 480 for some lighting and motors on 2 phases or 3 phases. This is also the power setup used at the local mall for main distribution throughout the building. This is also the voltage I was referring to about the trash compactors and exterior lighting. 480 3phase also goes to each tenant space and the tenant is responsible for providing the transformer to step-down to 120/208.

120/208 is similar and you can get the 'high leg' in the 120/240/208 setup. Usually, the high leg is marked in orange. I ran into that situation in local fire house when they were upgrading their fire alarm system and needed a new feed for it. I noticed the breakers in the panel were skipping every 3rd one. I checked and found 208 on the unused spaces. Not good for something designed for 120. Something about letting out the Magical Smoke in a fire house isn't good......

[Krankshaft]

Re: Holy crap my house could have caught fire!

Man that guy is a perfectionist he hit that meter line right in the center! Fios "tech" my ass.

That's the reason why drills are double insulated to prevent morons like this from earning Darwin awards.

[kaboom]

Re: Holy crap my house could have caught fire!

I should've figured the compactor was fed off 480Y/277. Couldn't keep myself from mentioning 480 delta after I'd gone on about semi-antique systems...

Up around Jim Thorpe/Lehighton, there are still plenty of old 240/120 open delta services. It's old fashioned in a good way- seeing the small grocery store, refig load and all, fed from the same bank as the houses next door.

Take the big box stores, for example. 480Y/277 service, with a 480:208/120 dry transformer for all the computers, POS terminals, and convenience receps. Everything else is 480/277, of course.

The high school here has a hell of a 480/277 service, with CT/PT primary metering. The metal clad switchgear is close to a riser pole, where the primary's taken. Secondary goes underground for ~300 feet. Chillers, etc are 480, air handlers and lighting 277. Contactors for MH lights in gym. Multiple step-downs for the 208/120. 'Puters and receps 120, of course. Steamer/warmer trays 208 3ph. Dimmers in the auditorium are a hefty 120 load. Not sure what size the service is.

Have you seen the sub at Van Houten and Mt Prospect, Ben? Old enough to use groups of 3 single phase pots instead of ones with all three phases in one tank. Looks like it was generation, too. Old Westinghouse stuff fo' sure!

Come on, Krank! This was before fios- can you blame the guy for wanting to speed up that DSL?

[CWB]

Re: Holy crap my house could have caught fire!

@ kaboom :
the picture of the "screwed" panel feed line ...
that looks like the old silvery woven cloth covered tar impregnated "romex" stuff w/ rubber insulation .
what amuses me is the fact that *anyone* could be ignorant enough to not put two and two together and not think "gee , this here wire is coming out of the bottom of a meter panel , maybe i shouldn't screw (!) with it ..." .

i honestly believe that darwin awards are a good thing ... if only there were a much higher level of "advertising" to them .

old wiring :
i have seen zip cord pulled in for outlets and lighting circuits ...
no crimps , no wire nuts , no solder , no j-boxes ... just twisted flying taps .

on the other hand , i have seen tube-n-bobbin runs that were done with #10 (and larger) and very good western union type taps that were soldered . the taps were done with #12 and #14
the attic and basements in these cases were a testament to the electricians of old that took pride in their work and did not cut corners .

still , the old stuff was a hazard as compared to more modern methods .
usually one thinks that this stuff evolves towards the "higher end" but every once-in-a-while , just like with genetics , there is a throw-back such as ;
aluminum wiring in houses .

[delaware74b]

Re: Holy crap my house could have caught fire!

on the other hand , i have seen tube-n-bobbin runs that were done with #10 (and larger) and very good western union type taps that were soldered . the taps were done with #12 and #14
the attic and basements in these cases were a testament to the electricians of old that took pride in their work and did not cut corners .

still , the old stuff was a hazard as compared to more modern methods .
usually one thinks that this stuff evolves towards the "higher end" but every once-in-a-while , just like with genetics , there is a throw-back such as ;
aluminum wiring in houses .

The old knob & tube wiring is actually safe IF: fused or breakered properly, insulation kept at least 3" away, and the wire's insulation isn't crumbling off. The reason for insulation being kept away is it's considered 'open air wiring' by NEC.

Aluminum wiring does have its issues with thermal expansion/contraction compared to copper. The fact remains there are many installations still in use here in the US. Also, with properly selected and installed devices, aluminum (AL) is safe. This means you can't use the $0.50 outlets or switches, as they are not listed for AL. Specifically, CO-ALR switches and outlets are the only devices for AL. AL is still used and legal for larger circuits such as electric ranges, outside A/C units, service cables, etc. The high price of copper is the main reason AL is used, especially in the larger wire sizes.

[joshnz]

Re: Holy crap my house could have caught fire!

Here in NZ we have the 11kv 3 phase delta I guess to every block with 1 250kva former per block that provides 3 phase + neutral 415vac phase to phase and 230vac phase to neutral at 50Hz. The new transformers they install when they put the cables underground are 500KVA. the feeds to houses used to be continuous and controlled continuous is used for lights and power points and the control is used for hot water and night heating. now the default setup is one 60A feed per house and the phases are balanced by one hose on red one on blue and one on yellow repeated on the whole block.

Some scary things happen when one of the 11kv phases come down or contact one of the low voltage phases.

[skystormfarms]

Re: Holy crap my house could have caught fire!