one happy ms customer

[i4004]

Re: one happy ms customer

>Many newer notebooks are XP crippled by design.
Comes up almost daily on Experts Exchange.

so name few.
tell us who's not producing xp drivers...i would like to know.
as kc said, who cares if they have ms blessing or not?
i mean you can install unsigned drivers too, right?

centos seems pretty ambitious.

[zandrax]

Re: one happy ms customer

@ everyone: please, this is not a saloon. Don't start a Win-vs-Linux flame, it wouldn't be useful at all.

@ PCBONEZ: first i4004 post is ironic: it's not an happy MS customer because he has a problem with IE7 and XP and Microsoft KB states he needs to apply last patches. He did and the problem lasted, so he ranted against that stupid hel[l/p] desk page. Yeah, it took me some time to read subsequent posts and realize this by myself: my humor was on holiday today ...

@ i4004: as written before, it took me some time to realize your rant: can you explain your thoughts better next time?
BTW, the MSI Wind affair is a bit suspicious to me: why the sales manager stated only the relative proportion (4 linux netbooks for every XP one) and not the absolute value? There is a big difference, say, from a 8% vs 2% and an 80% vs 20%: in first case over 90% of people kept the linux version happily, in the latter most didn't (and I'd ask why 20% of Windows laptop users returned its own too). Moreover in ArsTecnica article you linked Asus spokesman stated that linux powered Eee PCs didn't have higher return rates than Win powered ones, so the equation "linux = returns" is difficult to support without having numbers to work on.
I agree some people are happy with XP, don't want to change at all (maybe because they learnt XP's menus, commands and such and fear they'd lose the little knowledge they've) and these are the one who oppposes both to linux distros and to Vista: they'd oppose to Windows 98 too because it's graphically different from XP (there are a lot of differences under the hood too, but for these people appearance is everything), they'd argue even on Classic vs Luna themes; my question is: is this opposition the only cause for all returns? No hardware trouble, no strage quircks, no badly preinstalled Suse 11 (which is an overkill for a NetBook and lacks the icon interface Xandros boasts on the EEE Pc)? Without absolute values, we can't be sure at all.

Zandrax

[PCBONEZ]

Re: one happy ms customer

I never cared to keep track because I'm not going to be using Vista or XP on a laptop.
Searching EE for old issues is a pain in the butt, but I could start making a list as I see them.

Usually it's the wireless LAN, bluetooth, phone/aircards add-ons like 3G Sierra. Some of the videos can be made to at least work but only with older version drivers and you can't get some of the new ooie features to work. Some have had problems with sound. I think with video and sound they just gave up too easy.

Unsigned drivers only work if the manufacturer makes them for XP.
Just like W98 legacy drivers went away when W98 did, some manufacturers that don't sell retail (their stuff is only sold with new systems) aren't making legacy drivers for XP.
- Probably not the brightest buisness desicion to do that this soon but some are already doing it.

..

Yes Centos will probably kick my ass for a while but I'll learn a lot getting my ass kicked. - Not counting entertainment shit (wife's PVR, thinking MythTV for that probably) I want to be set up like a business here with everything on the server and the other boxes being basically just terminals that access the server.

It was a toss-up between the Fedora/Red-Hat based Centos and Debian based Ubuntu Server. - Fedora/Red-Hat base seems to be more popular for enterprise class web servers so I figure I just need to suck it up and learn it now instead of later.

.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: one happy ms customer

WHAT!
We can't drink here!!!!!!

[i4004]

Re: one happy ms customer

>Don't start a Win-vs-Linux flame

eh..we just talk like that. openness on both sides and all...
<wink>

>as written before, it took me some time to realize your rant: can you explain your thoughts better next time?

why? i just publicly sent ms to hell for being morons.
there were many times i was satisified with their software(heck, i think only os worth any money probably is win2k...xp i perceive as 9x/nt merger, which means it's prone to being polluted after a certain time...in this case they've polluted it themselves by patches... but i blame myself! next time i won't patch but will have antivirus running...this time i did antivirus and i patched as a layer of extra security...silly me!).
i give them credit where credit is due(many times when people attack ms for no good reason) but i also protest when they're assholes.
at least they could tell me what dll was faulting, also perhaps how many other machines have the issue....
i figured it out myself with debugger....oleaut32.dll...which means it's not some external program so not much i can do....
their error reporting system is rubbish too. too many clicks that show nothing.
(by reporting i mean both those reports sent back to them, and reports i see on screen...why the hell are they hiding crash dump?)
and crash dump is immediately erased from temp folder: you actually need to grab it from there while error dialog box is on.
who profits from such design? i can't tell....

return rates: eh, i think they (both asus and msi) would be happy to report good things when it comes to linux, but they just can't.
report ars article links to
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology.../linux.windows
"Shen -- who is keen on Linux -- said Asus had hoped sales of Eee PCs would be 50:50 between XP and Linux, but actually they were 60:40 in XP's favour. (I assume that's for this calendar year.) So far, around 4m have been sold, and the target is 5m for this year.

Linux got about 6 months start over XP, including four months this calendar year, so the market has swung XP's way. However, it's impossible to say where it will end up.

I asked several Asus staff about figures for returns, but none thought that more Linux machines were being returned to stores. This is not the case at MSI, where Andy Tung, the Director of US Sales, told Laptop magazine: "The return rate is at least four times higher for Linux netbooks than Windows XP netbooks." "

overall it seems to me msi kept better record of return rates, and asus doesn't seem to have data(asus staff? which staff? anybody that was actually counting? or just somebody behind the counter who doesn't know anything about anything?)
but yes, actual numbers would be good, but perhaps they would be too sad......

ars article has explanation why: people are just unfamiliar with linux, and it's not that easy to find somebody to guide them thru linux.
guidance thru win is mostly easy. mayn probably learn it just because "everybody else is doing it" etc.

>my question is: is this opposition the only cause for all returns? No hardware trouble, no strage quircks, no badly preinstalled Suse 11 (which is an overkill for a NetBook and lacks the icon interface Xandros boasts on the EEE Pc)? Without absolute values, we can't be sure at all.

opposition is main factor. linux is percepted as harder to use.
i must say that even for me that silly installation mess is ridiculous.
why does it need install managers at all?
it reminds of windows activation, which depends on their server: if there's no available server with programs i can't easilly install programs on linux?
hell, i want to be able to install software i dloaded 8 years ago.
quite literally. no to depend on any linux server, which is a hobbyst project anyway, and can be turned off at anytime....devs just need to lose will and/or time to care for it.

so on linux, even programs installation can be problematic.
on windows this just sounds odd.
----

pcbonez, well if we're talking about recent machines i guess there are higher chances they don't have xp drivers...but overall i presume numbers of such machines are not high...one would need to see what wlan chips don't have it, then see how many laptops use those chips at all, etc.
if kc didn't saw it, chances are not that many mfrs lack xp drivers.
i presume only smallest makers don't do it, as they lack staff etc.

centos: well if you have time and will to get your ass kicked...hehe...
i feel i don't have will to install os(from the scratch) on my machine again in my life....so i have images of disks...and new disks with system and data on them, and universal images with system stuff on it...huh..
still..easier to fuck a bit with that than to install everything anew: might as well kill me, when i see how many programs i have installed...
ie i lack will to install win again, let alone learning linux...
for others i can do it(have automated xp install dvd), but others don't have as many programs as i do, so their losses are small....heck, they'll probably gain few new progs after that install, as it packs many programs, drivers etc.

[acstech]

Re: one happy ms customer

I'll bet most of the returns of the Linux netbooks go something along these lines...

"Where's Outlook? How am I going to get my email without Outlook?"

-finds evolution / thunderbird-

"This isn't Outlook! I can't use this!"

-takes it back-

That scenario could happen with pretty much any one of the programs they were using with Windoze.

Installing programs difficult? You've got to be kidding right? You know how I install programs? I go to System --> Administration --> Add / Remove Software. Search, or select, the package I want, and hit apply! Wow, that was difficult. Wait, what's this? No product keys? Nothing telling me "this doesn't work with the 64 bit edition of Windows?" Nothing trying to install spyware or a trojan horse? How can this possibly work??!! Wait a minute, it's added to my Applications menu too! How did that happen?

And on the off chance there's something I want to do that's NOT in the Add / Remove Software, just google it. No, don't google Outlook. Type in what you want to do, find the RPM, and install it.

It's easy after you figure out what you're doing.

The big concept to understand here is that Linux is not windows! It never will be. The whole concept of "installing software" is different. Not only is installing software different, often times the software itself is different. Not worse, just different. A lot of people don't have the time, willpower, or I hate to say it (doesn't apply to anyone here on this one) mental capacity to do something different. I would argue that the software installation method of Fedora at least, is better than Windows.

[i4004]

Re: one happy ms customer

yes, that's the key: it's different, and people are slow at accepting it.

i did some more troubleshooting...this time i loaded bigger dump(crash produces 2 dumps: .hdmp and .mdmp)
this time i loaded hd.

and it seems it is external program

filebox extender, one of the most usefull tool ever.
http://www.hyperionics.com/files/index.asp

i'll see if disabling it solves it...if it does, i'll try installing latest version..if that fails i'll report them a bug.
i'm not that bad to devs after all(esp. when i need the program to work good..hehe)

[i4004]

Re: one happy ms customer

that wasn't it: debugger actually shows different problem everytime....

[i4004]

Re: one happy ms customer

but this
http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coff...mmentID=384865
seems to bring relief for my burdened ie...

now i can open few tabs, AND close ie7 without crashing...
don't think i'll go thru the trouble of enabling all of them again one by one, i'll turn on what i need, when i need.
flash turned itself on, but it wasn't the offending plugin anyway.
del.icio.us buttons are also safe.

[i4004]

Re: one happy ms customer

spoke too soon, it crashed again....anyway, i'll report if i find out what is causing it...