Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

[Logistics]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Been browsing this thread here and there. I can see the standpoint that there may be fake Samxons due to differing results experienced by different techs. I used Samxons I bought from BigPope (iirc) on motherboards and PSU's, and didn't have any trouble, later. But I believe that particular system was a slot P3 so not high stress.

[Behemot]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Most funny's that the huge printer machine is HP but the controlling PC's IBM, as far as I've heard, never really seen the whole thing

[Topcat]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Who knows, I've already repaired strange IBM systems with Socket 478, reportedly it runs some huge printer, if you had gazilion printing material for close to nothing, you'd also keep such beast alive, so maybe it's similar case.

I recap a bunch of proprietary MSI socket 478 & early LGA775 boards for several clients that runs these as some kind of controller for some kind of industrial printers/plotters. If it has a purpose, its age really doesn't matter...

[Behemot]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Who knows, I've already repaired strange IBM systems with Socket 478, reportedly it runs some huge printer, if you had gazilion printing material for close to nothing, you'd also keep such beast alive, so maybe it's similar case.

[Topcat]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Most of those caps died after 11 years of use no matter was it Sanyo, Rubycon, Nichicon or NCC (obviously) caps, especially in these terrible Dell systems. That's pretty much confirmation Samxons were on par with those ultra-low ESR caps.

Absolutely. My observation/reporting of this failure wasn't intended as a criticism. These systems roast even the best panasonic lytics. Horrible design. The GC's hung in nearly 10 years, not bad considering the circumstances.

Polymers only have a chance of surviving longer, although I doubt they'll still use it after 2030

Geez, I hope not....but then again, I didn't expect it to still be in use now...

[Behemot]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Most of those caps died after 11 years of use no matter was it Sanyo, Rubycon, Nichicon or NCC (obviously) caps, especially in these terrible Dell systems. That's pretty much confirmation Samxons were on par with those ultra-low ESR caps.

Polymers only have a chance of surviving longer, although I doubt they'll still use it after 2030

[Topcat]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

^
I actually had a Dell SX270 come back on me a year or so ago that I used Samxon GC's on....recapped circa 2009. I don't know what they use that system for, but they wanted it recapped again. I polymodded it this go-round.

[Behemot]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Just for some upgrade after 5 more years, I had two RS 330/25 caps (or something like that) dead in an old router some time back, but that thing was running quite warm for many years 24/7 after recapping it.

So far, did not get any single confirmed case of dead RS 3300/16 D10x30 mm I sourced years ago directly from the factory. I already sold or used up about half of it, which means I still have over 2000 pcs left, which are also just fine.

[Wester547]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

1. gamma-Butyrolactone (GBL)
2. Dimethylformamide (DMF)
3. Dimethyl Acetal (DMA)

Also, I meant Dimethylacetamide, not Dimethyl Acetal. I was basically referencing lactone and select amide solvents, IE solvents that can handle temperatures of -55C and lower.

As for KZGs, I think they're just unpredictable. Some part of the formula or solution must be wreaking aggressive havoc upon the rest of the materials, hence the frequent generation of hydrogen gas and failure even on the shelf. But to be more on-topic to the thread, at least it can be said now that Man Yue try to manufacture decent capacitors, unlike most other Chinese brands.

[Per Hansson]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

I think that some NCC KZGs were outsourced - maybe to Korea Chemicon or Samyoung or similar. Whether that was the cause for the KZG failures, I don't know.

I don't believe so, here for example are KZG caps with two different datecodes produced in the same factory (Japan - Tokyo as Wester points out)
But only one of the datecodes from the same factory had failed:

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...12&postcount=8

[Wester547]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Never soldered or had bias applied, but these are a "cut lead" lot. A failed 1500uF measures with C of about 2500uF and anomalous high leakage current - the tester claims that is a cell (i.e. battery) in one direction and diode with Vf=274 mV in another (typical for thinned or non-existent oxide - it probably shares some characteristics of metal-semiconductor diodes).

Sounds like the aluminum oxide film has been corroded by the highly water base electrolyte, potentially causing a partial short in the dielectric and high leakage current. Things might have changed if they were actually used and kept cool with the ripple current low, over the course of many years, but KZGs that old might just be doomed to failure.

A good (non-bulged) 1500uF/6.3 measures as 1805uF/40 mohm and Vloss of 1.8%. Slightly high, but still almost within the 20% spec for capacitance after 12 years, so it's not too bad.

NCC states in the datasheet that if capacitance is within 25% of the nominal capacity after the endurance test, it's still good. 0.040 ohms is a tad high, but if the contact resistance at the leads is an issue, it might not be cause for concern.

Clearly, they missed something in the formula for KZG versus KZE. It should have been easy to fix, unless the two electrolyte formulations are vastly different in their electrochemical reactions, which seems unlikely.

The KZG sheet says that it uses the same "advanced electrolyte technology" as KZE. The difference must be in the concentration of ions, or the amount of water, or how conductive the electrolyte is.

[linuxguru]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

0.020 ohms is a bit on the high side - an unused capacitor of that class should measure just a bit lower IMO, but then again they are KZGs...

My measurements may be off (higher) by 10..20 mohms, due to contact resistance at the leads that I cannot null out in my setup.

These were never soldered or had bias applied to their plates, I take it? Do they measure high capacitance or low capacitance (or in between)?

Never soldered or had bias applied, but these are a "cut lead" lot. A failed 1500uF measures with C of about 2500uF and anomalous high leakage current - the tester claims that is a cell (i.e. battery) in one direction and diode with Vf=274 mV in another (typical for thinned or non-existent oxide - it probably shares some characteristics of metal-semiconductor diodes).

A good (non-bulged) 1500uF/6.3 measures as 1805uF/40 mohm and Vloss of 1.8%. Slightly high, but still almost within the 20% spec for capacitance after 12 years, so it's not too bad.

Sounds like those were manufactured on August 3rd of 2003, factory "3" again. It's common for KZGs to bulge in storage, especially the 3300uF 6.3V 10x25 ones. Those are the worst, and will bulge in storage whether the print on the legend is distinct or not.

Yes, I have a few of those, but they had bulged in use.

Well, I think KZGs are just poor quality, truth be told. I've seen KZGs whose sleeves are almost identical to KZEs in every respect - the materials used, the quality of the print, the values, the factories from whence they came, but only KZGs are known to be so unstable that they outgas without ever having ripple current applied to them or a bias across their plates. It seems strange to me that UCC would allot such respectable resources - a full team of QC chemists, and do the proper research - for all their other series, but just let a couple of series go to crap. In simple terms, they screwed something up.

Clearly, they missed something in the formula for KZG versus KZE. It should have been easy to fix, unless the two electrolyte formulations are vastly different in their electrochemical reactions, which seems unlikely.

[Wester547]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

I think that some NCC KZGs were outsourced - maybe to Korea Chemicon or Samyoung or similar. Whether that was the cause for the KZG failures, I don't know.

Samyoung use different aluminum cans than Chemi-con. There are subtle but evident and consistent differences in the finer, more studious details of each individual case. Samyoung cases tend to have thinner vent stamps and a more silvered finish in terms of color than NCC's. The difference in stenciling clarity could mean anything, and that is bound to vary by any manufacturer with millions being produced at any given time, especially when the actual sleeve quality may vary based upon the request for PET or PVC sleeves.

I have some 820uF/6.3V/8x24 mm, with sharp legend print, shiny aluminium body, and fine vent scoring (ending before the sleeve edge). This is similar to some known Japanese-production LXZ that I've used earlier, so I'm confident that this is authentic. Date code 58 E(3), measures at ~20 mohm ESR. No apparent failures in a lot of ~12 in storage.

That date code would translate to August 5th of 2005, factory "3", according to UCC's date decoding system. Those 8x25 820uF 6.3V KZGs were a custom order made for Foxconn, I believe. They were used interchangeably with 8x20 820uF 6.3V MCZs and 8x20 820uF 6.3V HNs in the VRM output of older Socket 478 motherboards. The HNs of the timeframe were the most prone to failure, followed by the KZGs and MCZs. 0.020 ohms is a bit on the high side - an unused capacitor of that class should measure just a bit lower IMO, but then again they are KZGs...

OTOH, I also have some 1500uF/6.3v/8x20 mm, with larger and less distinct legend print, slightly more matt aluminium body, wider vent score lines that extend below edge of the sleeve. Date code 38 C(3), measures at ~40 mohm ESR. A couple of failures (bulged) in a lot of about 50 in storage.

These were never soldered or had bias applied to their plates, I take it? Do they measure high capacitance or low capacitance (or in between)? Sounds like those were manufactured on August 3rd of 2003, factory "3" again. It's common for KZGs to bulge in storage, especially the 3300uF 6.3V 10x25 ones. Those are the worst, and will bulge in storage whether the print on the legend is distinct or not. The ones you found on the ASUS board were manufactured on September 11th and 15th of 2007, factory "T" (Japan, Tokyo likely).

I'm inclined to believe that the latter are outsourced or produced in a "lesser" Asian production facility, though nominally controlled by NCC, and have lower production and/or QC standards. The bulk of the KZG failures in mobos may be accounted for by the latter type.

Well, I think KZGs are just poor quality, truth be told. I've seen KZGs whose sleeves are almost identical to KZEs in every respect - the materials used, the quality of the print, the values, the factories from whence they came, but only KZGs are known to be so unstable that they outgas without ever having ripple current applied to them or a bias across their plates. It seems strange to me that UCC would allot such respectable resources - a full team of QC chemists, and do the proper research - for all their other series, but just let a couple of series go to crap. In simple terms, they screwed something up.

[linuxguru]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

This makes me wonder about the Japanese brands, though. Nippon Chemi-con is the biggest producer of electrolytics on the planet - maybe they just didn't have the time or resources to properly QC test all those KZGs and KZJs (hence that KZJs and KZVs were discontinued as early as late 2007 because of "production" issues), or something slipped them by in the QC testing process for sure, hence the crap quality.

I think that some NCC KZGs were outsourced - maybe to Korea Chemicon or Samyoung or similar. Whether that was the cause for the KZG failures, I don't know.

I have some 820uF/6.3V/8x24 mm, with sharp legend print, shiny aluminium body, and fine vent scoring (ending before the sleeve edge). This is similar to some known Japanese-production LXZ that I've used earlier, so I'm confident that this is authentic. Date code 58 E(3), measures at ~20 mohm ESR. No apparent failures in a lot of ~12 in storage.

OTOH, I also have some 1500uF/6.3v/8x20 mm, with larger and less distinct legend print, slightly more matt aluminium body, wider vent score lines that extend below the edge of the sleeve. Date code 38 C(3), measures at ~40 mohm ESR. A couple of failures (bulged) in a lot of about 50 in storage.

I'm inclined to believe that the latter are outsourced or produced in a "lesser" Asian production facility, though nominally controlled by NCC, and have lower production and/or QC standards. The bulk of the KZG failures in mobos may be accounted for by the latter type - the ones I've seen on an Asus M2A-MX motherboard are of similar appearance, with date codes of 7(T) 90 and 7(T) 9K, but no visible failures yet.

[Wester547]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Been talking to former Man Yue employee and got some interesting information…

They use best quality foils and electrolyte imported from Japan for important manufacturer customers like Osram. As for the rest, especially resellers, I guess any combination of materials may be possible. I would expect some series (those known to be bad) to constantly use bad materials and vice versa.

What does not pleased me at all is that Many Yue supposedly has very fluctuating quality between batches as they do not test them enough/do not have capabilities to test properly all of them.

Yup, QC testing is everything, and I suspected that is the #1 issue with all the "bad" brands. It isn't enough just to import materials from Japan or use high purity materials. Most poor brands don't even bother with QC testing - hence the very inconsistent quality. Samwha's QC testing must also be poor despite using Japanese imported aluminum foil. Makes me wonder how good Taicon's QC testing is, despite the fact that they import a handful of their materials from Japan and that several Nichicon employees do oversee their manufacturing process according to one of the documents I linked. Toshin Kogyo's QC testing (or the complete lack thereof) must be poor for sure - hence the exceedingly poor quality despite the high purity of materials (they claim their QC testing is great, but that's marketing).

So, the upshot is, the Samxons found in consumer equipment - Hipro PSUs, CWT PSUs, Lite-on PSUs, LCD monitors, old "EVGA" rebadged nVidia motherboards, Intel/Foxconn/Pegatron motherboards, are of flaky quality at best, but the Samxons sold to Behemot, bigpope, Topcat, are of excellent quality? At least that's what I can chalk this up to. Man Yue do claim that their QC testing process is excellent in their publicly available documents - that must be marketing again.

This makes me wonder about the Japanese brands, though. Nippon Chemi-con is the biggest producer of electrolytics on the planet - maybe they just didn't have the time or resources to properly QC test all those KZGs and KZJs (hence that KZJs and KZVs were discontinued as early as late 2007 because of "production" issues), or something slipped them by in the QC testing process for sure, hence the crap quality. I wonder if this was really the issue with early HMs/HNs/HZs (and some early HDs/HCs) and if Nichicon corrected that later on. This may extend to some series from some other "good" brands as well - I wonder if the demand for some of these bad series was so high at a time that even the good brands had to bypass QC testing altogether so as to meet the demand of the customers.

[ChaosLegionnaire]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

well thats not good. thats a strike against them due to poor QC and making their products inconsistent.

my opinion on putting non-jap caps as second tier (due to their lack of "EQ" behind their product) still stands.

[Behemot]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Been talking to former Man Yue employee and got some interesting information…

They use best quality foils and electrolyte imported from Japan for important manufacturer customers like Osram. As for the rest, especially resellers, I guess any combination of materials may be possible. I would expect some series (those known to be bad) to constantly use bad materials and vice versa.

What does not pleased me at all is that Many Yue supposedly has very fluctuating quality between batches as they do not test them enough/do not have capabilities to test properly all of them.

[stj]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

non-aqueous capacitors can be broken down into three types of organic electrolyte:

1. gamma-Butyrolactone (GBL)
2. Dimethylformamide (DMF)
3. Dimethyl Acetal (DMA)

SMD electrolytics use cat-piss as electrolyte.

[mockingbird]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Post-2005 HM seems to hold up better, both in storage and operational usage. An unused 3300uF/6.3V/10mm HM with date code H0533 measures as 3810 uF and ESR of ~30 mohm.

Interesting.

The 10x20 part should be 13 mOhm and the 10x25 part 12 mOhm.

I wonder if the ESR would go back to normal after re-forming...

[Behemot]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Well, if you want a cap which has never been used to last a decade…is it even reasonable demand? Just try reforming them while there is still time left and see how that goes…