Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

[Behemot]

Re: OCZ 700 Watt Bug Zapper Recap & Repair

Samxon GF... CapXon GF (both green).
Samxon GS... CapXon GS (both blue).
Samxon GL... CapXon GL (both brown).
Samxon KM... CapXon KM (both black).
Samxon LP... CapXon LP (both black snap-ins).
Samxon HP... CapXon HP (both black snap-ins).

Never seen bad KM, LP or HP. And I never seen Samxon GS ever, only those blue capxon craps.

Not since late '05/06, they fixed those two series.

I've seen shitloads of bad HN/HM after 05/06.

Nothing wrong with PW. It and HE, when PW won't fit, are my go-to choices for SMPS caps. Panasonic FC/FM/FR are also top picks, depending on availability of the Nichicons. FWIW, 10V japcaps are just fine on 3.3 and 5, you don't have to go up one voltage-grade. That was an old trick to attempt to make crapcaps last longer- how [i]much[/i longer is anyone's guess.

Just that all of them are bigger, have shorter lifetime and are more expensive than my D10 caps. But yeah, otherwise they are good.

Being the most expensive of the good brands

There is one and only reason why they are expensive: they make almost everything in Japan. That is also why Rubycons are in very little products made in China - as there are high import taxes, everybody is forced to set up a plant in China. Others did, Rubycon not.

Most of the Chemi-Con caps I source are from Indonesia or China, only the custom KZN are from Japan plant.

I'll continue to accept repair work until I'm dead. It's nowhere near that point, I have atleast a year's worth of stuff left to sell....after that, it'll be repair only.

When you run out, my offer to supply you is still valid. As long as I have something to supply

[stj]

Re: OCZ 700 Watt Bug Zapper Recap & Repair

[goodpsusearch]

Re: OCZ 700 Watt Bug Zapper Recap & Repair

Nichicon VR are rated for 85C, that's why he complained when Intel used them as small caps on motherboards.

[Wester547]

Re: OCZ 700 Watt Bug Zapper Recap & Repair

Not since late '05/06, they fixed those two series.

For example, the computer I'm posting from, right now, has HMs for all the general bypassing, as well as memory regulators. Those caps are the original from Sept 2011.

Don't use the fiasco (overfilled cans) of 10 years ago as the basis to judge post '06 HM/HNs.

Well, the "overfilled" conception came from this announcement:

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...3&postcount=24

And, that announcement didn't actually come from Nichicon. So I don't know what was actually amiss with those HMs and HNs. Maybe they were counterfeit, manufactured by Taicon under subcontract, or maybe Nichicon wasn't using very good inhibitors and oxidizers to rein in the H2O-based corrosion. They do seem to have improved over time at least.

Funny, seems like they cross to capxon GF- would be no surprise if they're both the same thing.

Samxon GF... CapXon GF (both green).
Samxon GS... CapXon GS (both blue).
Samxon GL... CapXon GL (both brown).
Samxon KM... CapXon KM (both black).
Samxon LP... CapXon LP (both black snap-ins).
Samxon HP... CapXon HP (both black snap-ins).

All have an equally high failure rate (except Samxon KM seem to be better than CapXon KM). Only difference between them is minor - CapXon's vent stamps seem to be thinner and their sleeve polarity markings slightly aberrant.

And, as far as jap electrolyte is concerned, if I buy the story (which I won't even rent), the quality of the foil doesn't even matter. "Durr, the electrolyte is all that matters!" Nope, not buying it this much.

China-pride recycled aluminum, making its way into the can or foil, contaminates the entire device, electrolyte be damned. Isn't that one of the many problems crapxons have???

Yes, the quality of aluminum foil is critical. I suspect that shoddy aluminum is the real reason why all those Teapos and OSTs went bad without showing it...

That also goes for their datasheets, which plainly LIE about the supposed life claims of said crap caps. Why is it I can sub a Nichicon VR in a DVD power supply, and the unit will work? It should be obvious they "market" their caps in such a way to unfairly compete with japcaps.

Well, Nichicon VR was a series that PCBONEZ would often complain about. I don't know why - they don't last in very toasty environments but any electrolytic will eventually dry up in such an environment. I have plenty of machines with Nichicon VRs on the output of linear regulators running just fine. Of course low ESR 105*C capacitors would be preferable.

Yes, Nichicon HE, PW, and Chemi-con KY are all apt choices for PSUs. It would be difficult to get better bang for your buck than NCC KY.

[kaboom]

Re: OCZ 700 Watt Bug Zapper Recap & Repair

the Japanese brands have some really bad models:
United Chemi Con KZG & KZJ
Nichicon HM & HN for example.

Not since late '05/06, they fixed those two series.

For example, the computer I'm posting from, right now, has HMs for all the general bypassing, as well as memory regulators. Those caps are the original from Sept 2011.

Don't use the fiasco (overfilled cans) of 10 years ago as the basis to judge post '06 HM/HNs.


As for the KZG/KZJs, those were/are more likely to give trouble, but you'd have warning signs too- maybe those bluescreens and errors in memtest are telling something...

That yes Samxon also has a bad series: Samxon GF
But Samxon is different to the other Chinese brands.
They source their raw materials from Japan but have the factories in China.

Funny, seems like they cross to capxon GF- would be no surprise if they're both the same thing.

Maybe it's true that some samxons are better, but how many have a "capxon" equivalent/cross/little brother?

How can you be sure the samxons of tomorrow are the same as those 9-year old ones that've held up in that antec?

I can't, and will never use them. Too many similarities- "quality" and appearance of the sleeves/vent scores/printing, and the fact that both crap-zon and sam-zon have series with the same name, again.

Until I find out otherwise, both samxon and capxon are the same thing- will never use them. What happened to pride in your work?

And, as far as jap electrolyte is concerned, if I buy the story (which I won't even rent), the quality of the foil doesn't even matter. "Durr, the electrolyte is all that matters!" Nope, not buying it this much.

China-pride recycled aluminum, making its way into the can or foil, contaminates the entire device, electrolyte be damned. Isn't that one of the many problems crapxons have???

So sometimes it may help to only take the manufacture's word with a grain of salt, should that word stem from the [/b]marketing department.[/b

That also goes for their datasheets, which plainly LIE about the supposed life claims of said crap caps. Why is it I can sub a Nichicon VR in a DVD power supply, and the unit will work? It should be obvious they "market" their caps in such a way to unfairly compete with japcaps.

"All specs are the same, therefore all caps are the same." Nothing's further from reality.

And GL... unless, of course, GL is a counterfeit series.

I see what you did. You are not shooting from the hip by suggesting GLs are fakes-of-fakes.

Good work on the repair, SgtRock. Nichicon PW is an excellent choice for PSUs.

Nothing wrong with PW. It and HE, when PW won't fit, are my go-to choices for SMPS caps. Panasonic FC/FM/FR are also top picks, depending on availability of the Nichicons. FWIW, 10V japcaps are just fine on 3.3 and 5, you don't have to go up one voltage-grade. That was an old trick to attempt to make crapcaps last longer- how [i]much[/i longer is anyone's guess.

'Rock, that power supply will outlast several computers, nice job!

[Wester547]

Re: OCZ 700 Watt Bug Zapper Recap & Repair

If you have not been fool you would at least ask when you do not know (which is not bad, but than you ask and not say BS) that Man Yue has been often sourcing electrolyte from Nichicon for many of their series.

But Samxon is different to the other Chinese brands.
They source their raw materials from Japan but have the factories in China.

I've scoured the internet and can't seem to find evidence to back these claims up. Did you email Man Yue, Behemot, and is this what they told you? Not to discredit either of you. But I don't think Nichicon would sell their materials to anyone but their subsidiaries. Then again, I recall reading that Man Yue has held claim that they've done business with Matsushita before (as well as OST and LTEC... LTEC has in fact been operating as a subsidiary of Man Yue since 2010 and Teapo since April 12th of 2005, and if you go to LTEC's website, you will find datasheets for Man Yue's X-CON polymer series, so I think they are their Taiwanese distributor). One last thing about that - when the whole "capacitor plague" fiasco was breaking out over a decade ago, certain "crap" brands were inquired as to where they sourced their materials. Teapo claimed they derived all their materials from Japan (obviously not true) and Jamicon claimed they sourced their electrolyte from Sanyo (Sanyo later denied this). So sometimes it may help to only take the manufacture's word with a grain of salt, should that word stem from the marketing department.

And because you are fool, you not only don't ask but also fail to understand "beside couple bad series as a whole (GF, GK)" and fail to recognize what do you actually see.

And GL... unless, of course, GL is a counterfeit series.

As for ultra-low ESR caps, I have seen shitloads of failed Nichicon, Chemi-Con, even Rubycon caps and only couple Samxon so far (and only on images). Nichicon, Chemi-Con, Rubycon are very good, very very good..... at making crap caps oh yeah…hard logic this is

The % of failed ultra-low ESR Rubycons has been much smaller than the % of ultra-low ESR failed UCCs and Nichicons. Rubycon seem to know what they're doing, as their main plant in Japan is right on the edge of a spring of incredible purity (the water-base electrolyte is much less contaminated). Being the most expensive of the good brands, I think their QC testing is probably some of the best, as is the grade and purity of their raw materials. I agree that a couple of Rubycon's series seem to be sensitive to heat (MCZ and MFZ) but that's just the nature of that kind of electrolyte in high concentrations. Samxon, Rubycon, and Nichicon discontinued their ultra-low ESR wet lytics anyway, long ago.... also keep in mind that the visual condition of a capacitor does not often correlate with their actual health.

My honest take on the whole matter? QC testing is probably a big part of the issue. Some batches of Samxon may be just bad (no matter the series), not because Man Yue is a crap company but because when the demand is high enough and the availability of parts is low enough, some companies might have to reduce the effort allotted to certain facets of production in order to get the parts out to the customers on time. One of them may unfortunately be QC testing. This could have been what really went askew with early HMs/HNs, even KZGs (NCC is the biggest producer of electrolytics on the planet). One last thing - having your favorite cap (or crap? ) brand is fine, but there's no need to get ultra defensive about it when someone calls them out (or tries to). Some people don't like Samxon or sometimes even UCC. Some prefer Panasonic over the rest of the brands. That's just the way it rolls!

But I hate to derail the thread further so I'll leave it at that. Good work on the repair, SgtRock. Nichicon PW is an excellent choice for PSUs.

[Per Hansson]

Re: OCZ 700 Watt Bug Zapper Recap & Repair

Asking people to use Samxon, now that is terrible!

Two, I replace all no name caps (Samxon included) in every unit, working or not, with real jappers

I just wanted to chime in and say that just like the Japanese brands have some really bad models:
United Chemi Con KZG & KZJ
Nichicon HM & HN for example.
That yes Samxon also has a bad series: Samxon GF

But Samxon is different to the other Chinese brands.
They source their raw materials from Japan but have the factories in China.
Topcat has sold a large range of Samxon capacitors in the past.
He still sells some models but due to reasons explained above that is a reducing stock.
I have used them myself in allot of recap jobs:
because before Badcaps started with international sales Topcat allowed another member of this site: Big Pope to sell to members outside of the US.
To humor you I can give just one fun example, an Antec PSU where the original caps failed after just a little over a year.
It's now been almost 9 whole years with the replacement Samxon's and it's still doing just fine!

[Behemot]

Re: OCZ 700 Watt Bug Zapper Recap & Repair

If you have not been fool you would at least ask when you do not know (which is not bad, but than you ask and not say BS) that Man Yue has been often sourcing electrolyte from Nichicon for many of their series. And because you are fool, you not only don't ask but also fail to understand "beside couple bad series as a whole (GF, GK)" and fail to recognize what do you actually see.

As for ultra-low ESR caps, I have seen shitloads of failed Nichicon, Chemi-Con, even Rubycon caps and only couple Samxon so far (and only on images). Nichicon, Chemi-Con, Rubycon are very good, very very good..... at making crap caps oh yeah…hard logic this is

[Rob Northen]

Re: OCZ 700 Watt Bug Zapper Recap & Repair

Another I-know-shit-about-Samxon-yet-I-am-being-clever. Mister, rather be silent thank you very much.

It has been sufficiently proven that beside couple bad series as a whole (GF, GK) Samxon caps are adequate to japanese capacitors. I personally have those RS 3300/16 running for at least 40000 hours at about 60 °C, mabye more (haven't really measured internal temperature but the air is hot as it partially sucks waste power from the case). Actually, I write from this unit right now. Maybe some day I will find the time to upgrade my FX500SE sample, or get some better unit from review, and after swapping them crack this ELT400AWT open and show you how fine the caps still are. Next year they will definitelly be over their rated life at 75 °C and over half the life at 65 °C.

Milions of combined hours have been run on these RS 3300/16, first on Joe Los (Big Popes) and than mine. Never heard about single cap failing.

Never claimed to be clever, but I know Samxon are very good, very very good..... at making crap caps, seen them fail a lot. Even Capxon and OST had a few good batches.... Dont tell me Samxon is better than Nichicon or even call them good.

[Behemot]

Re: OCZ 700 Watt Bug Zapper Recap & Repair

Another I-know-shit-about-Samxon-yet-I-am-being-clever. Mister, rather be silent thank you very much.

It has been sufficiently proven that beside couple bad series as a whole (GF, GK) Samxon caps are adequate to japanese capacitors. I personally have those RS 3300/16 running for at least 40000 hours at about 60 °C, mabye more (haven't really measured internal temperature but the air is hot as it partially sucks waste power from the case). Actually, I write from this unit right now. Maybe some day I will find the time to upgrade my FX500SE sample, or get some better unit from review, and after swapping them crack this ELT400AWT open and show you how fine the caps still are. Next year they will definitelly be over their rated life at 75 °C and over half the life at 65 °C.

Milions of combined hours have been run on these RS 3300/16, first on Joe Los (Big Popes) and than mine. Never heard about single cap failing.

[Rob Northen]

EDIT by mods: I have spun-off the Samxon discussion from this other thread here so it does not end up further off topic.
So please continue the discussion here instead

Yo next time you let me know for Samxons RS 3300/16 or Chemi-Con KZN 3300/16 in D10, that thing you did there is terrible and you'll have some serious fun getting those cables back.

My caps also usually cost fraction of the price you buy them from DK and similar. This also seems to be the case of my KZN which are expensive but still cheaper than those Nichicon sausages you bought. Plus they have longer life. So why you actually get those when they are worse in every possible way?

I think SgtRock is a big boy, and know what he is doing.
Asking people to use Samxon, now that is terrible!