Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

[linuxguru]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Wow, that is very disappointing. Just to be clear, were these ever soldered to a PCB or do they still retain their leads in full?

Leads are intact in full, and they were never soldered or had bias applied to them.

I think Nichicon HD and Suncon WX must be significantly more aqueous than Rubycon ZL and Chemi-con KZE.

Likely - a few drops of clear electrolyte with a slight yellowish tint had leaked out of the bulged unit, but no perforation is readily apparent in the vent (to the naked eye) - it must be a small one at the intersection of the score lines.

[Wester547]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Regarding the reliability of Nichicon HD, I may have spoken too soon. I just found one 3900uF/6.3V/12.5mm aluminium/lacquer-finished HD with date code HD124 which has bulged and spilled electrolyte in storage. Granted, it is over a decade old, has never had any bias applied to it to inhibit foil corrosion, and it's only one of over ~20 in that lot that has bulged, but it's still a cause for concern, since I've used that exact same value for Vcore bypass in a variety of motherboards, including a Shuttle FV24 (none of which has failed yet). The failed HD measures with very high capacitance (22,000 uF), ESR of 40 mohm and high Vloss (20%). I'm guessing that it has high leakage current. The not-yet-failed cohorts in the same lot also measure with high capacitance of 5000 uF+, but with lower ESR (20..30 mohm) and Vloss in the region of 2% - I'm guessing that they'll eventually fail in storage unless they're re-formed with bias.

Wow, that is very disappointing. Just to be clear, were these ever soldered to a PCB or do they still retain their leads in full?

I guess Nichicon had problems with their water base series until 2006-2008.... HD, HC, HV, HM, HN, HZ... I don't think HE has enough H2O content to wreak corrosion upon the dielectric. Taicon had issues with their HD and HI (equal to HM) series as well, which may include their HL (equal to HN), HF (equal to HD) and HH (equal to HV) series too, but otherwise, Taicon seems to be a very respectable capacitor manufacturer out of Taiwan. The fact that your Nichicon HD measures high capacitance (besides the fact that it's just been sitting in storage, of course, which in and of itself dissolves the dielectric) means that the dielectric film on the anode is austerely thinned, and the water base electrolyte has consumed it in storage more or less. Nichicon didn't use very good passivating mechanisms I guess. I think Nichicon HD and Suncon WX must be significantly more aqueous than Rubycon ZL, Panasonic FF, and Chemi-con KZE. 0.03 ohms and 3810 uF is a bit high for a 3300uF 6.3V 10x25 Nichicon HM IMO, though it is unused.

[linuxguru]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

As for Panasonic FF? Look at the datasheet here:

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...52&postcount=1

It's a direct cross to HD, ZL, KZE, WX... the different colored sleeves are likely due to the materials used. Polyester, Pb-free Polyvinyl chloride, or Polyolefin...

Thanks for the explanation and the link to the FF datasheet - it looks respectable, though not as low in ESR as the more recent FJ, FJS, etc.

Regarding the reliability of Nichicon HD, I may have spoken too soon. I just found one 3900uF/6.3V/12.5mm aluminium/lacquer-finished HD with date code HD124 which has bulged and spilled electrolyte in storage. Granted, it is over a decade old, has never had any bias applied to it to inhibit foil corrosion, and it's only one of over ~20 in that lot that has bulged, but it's still a cause for concern, since I've used that exact same value for Vcore bypass in a variety of motherboards, including a Shuttle FV24 (none of which has failed yet). The failed HD measures with very high capacitance (22,000 uF), ESR of 40 mohm and high Vloss (20%), noticeable bulging on the vent side as well as lower rubber bung. I'm guessing that it has high leakage current. The not-yet-failed cohorts in the same lot also measure with high capacitance of 5000 uF+, but with lower ESR (20..30 mohm) and Vloss in the region of 2% - I'm guessing that they'll eventually fail in storage unless they're re-formed with bias.

Post-2005 HM seems to hold up better, both in storage and operational usage. An unused 3300uF/6.3V/10mm HM with date code H0533 measures as 3810 uF and ESR of ~30 mohm.

[Wester547]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Rubycon went with mixed-aqueous electrolytics fairly early in the game, with ZA/ZL. I don't know about the YXA/YXG/YXF/YXH series, but they're probably less aqueous than ZL, and hence roughly the equivalent of FA/FC/FK, LXA/LXF/LXY/LXV/LXZ and PJ/PL/PM/PR/PS/PW, which are all quarternary-ammonium electrolyte non-aqueous series.

IIRC, Pete tore apart a Nichicon PW, Chemi-con LXZ, and Panasonic FC many years ago, so as to score for the presence of H2O content, and found that they have the organic solvent gamma-Butyrolactone. Generally, non-aqueous capacitors can be broken down into three types of organic electrolyte:

1. gamma-Butyrolactone (GBL)
2. Dimethylformamide (DMF)
3. Dimethyl Acetal (DMA)

There are a number of other weak, lactic acids, and ammonium salts such as those quaternary, used as organic solvents as well. Nichicon PR, PF, and Nippon LXF are some of the series that used that meticulous solvent. The advantage of non-aqueous capacitors is very good leakage current characteristics and stability in the long term - the hydrogen outgassing and pressure is less a likelihood and corrosion based on the eventual dissolving of the oxide layer into the solution a non issue during actual usage. Hillman's 2004 study found that the Japanese samples in their tests did have the phosphate ions and inhibitors to avert the H2O-based corrosion (only one of the two, though - possibly because one of the samples was a non-aqueous series) and that the Taiwanese samples did not, instead including ammonium ions in insufficient amounts with pH levels that were far too high.

As for Panasonic FF? Look at the datasheet here:

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...52&postcount=1

It's a direct cross to HD, ZL, KZE, WX... the different colored sleeves are likely due to the materials used. Polyester, Pb-free Polyvinyl chloride, or Polyolefin...

[linuxguru]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Panasonic FF is actually the direct across to KZE grade capacitors, FM is a bit lower ESR I think. Panasonic FF is known to be reliable despite only being a 2,000 hour series.

The FFs I've seen are all in silver-on-dark-blue sleeves, which suggests that FC/FK/FM (all in gold-on-dark-blue or gold-on-black) are lower ESR than FF. I'll measure and check the ESR on the few 1000uF/10V 8x20 FFs that I still have lying around, and compare with the 1500uF/6.3V 8x20 FJ just for reference.

[linuxguru]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Rubycon's conventions are also a little confusing. For example, is YXG an analog of NCC KY? Is it an aqueous cap? What's Rubycon's equivalent of LXZ/FC/PW? What's with all their newer series? What's the difference between say YXJ and ZL?

Rubycon went with mixed-aqueous electrolytics fairly early in the game, with ZA/ZL. I don't know about the YXA/YXG/YXF/YXH series, but they're probably less aqueous than ZL, and hence roughly the equivalent of FA/FC/FK, LXA/LXF/LXY/LXV/LXZ and PJ/PL/PM/PR/PS/PW, which are all quarternary-ammonium electrolyte non-aqueous series.

So it stands to reason that HD is in fact as good as anything else out there, if we assume that Rubycon didn't try to produce an 8x20 6.3V 1500uF part.

HD is indeed very good. Rubycon did produce a 1500uF/10V 8x20 ZLH, but AFAIK it is rated at some 6000..8000 hours and I haven't seen any failures with it. It's a bit of a rare bird, since it showed up pretty late in the game when mobo manufacturers were generally shifting to polymers.

... there are Nippon caps with "W" printed on the sleeve as the series. Now I've come across private Nippon datasheets on the web before, which is how I learned that when they get a custom order, they print "W" on the sleeve.

Cool, makes sense. I have some brown-sleeved NCC W-series caps rated at 1000uF/18V. It would probably be just a regular 16v series re-qualified during testing at 2V higher voltage.

[Wester547]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Okay, I hate to double post, but I was wrong. Man Yue do get their aluminum foil from Japan, so the fault must lie within their electrolyte:

http://www.jcc-foil.co.jp/eng/company/outline.html

Taicon hold claim to having sourced their aluminum foil from the same company since 1995, by the by.

Okay, it turns out that by Man Yue's own admission, they do actually have three factories in China for producing their own aluminum foil:



And according to this, Man Yue was simply a distributor of JCC products as of 1998:

http://www.scmp.com/article/245670/m...joint-ventures

Taicon do source their paper separators, electrolyte, and aluminum foil from Japan and sometimes even Nichicon, but sometimes unfortunately do get their aluminum from China (and process all their other materials in-house, IE Taiwan and/or China):

http://cfile222.uf.daum.net/attach/1...4C08890EC02343

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

However, it seems that none of the aforementioned companies suffer enough from aluminum foil issues for that to be the root cause of their high failure rate when it comes to a number of their series. Or maybe I'm wrong and it's just a crap shoot - IOW inconsistent quality in terms of materials.

[Behemot]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

There was either speculation or reference to Samxon importing their electrolyte from Japan for their GC/GD series. Now that you state that GK is a dud series as well, I'm begining to wonder if *most* of Samxon series are duds.

GK and GF are known to be bad, those are both the green-sleeved caps in displays and CWT PSUs.

Something that might shine some light on all this would be private datasheets from PSU manufacturers. I don't know if you've noticed this, but in a lot of recent PSU reviews, there are Nippon caps with "W" printed on the sleeve as the series. Now I've come across private Nippon datasheets on the web before, which is how I learned that when they get a custom order, they print "W" on the sleeve. What I don't understand then is why they didn't do this for Behemot for his custom KZN order.

Interesting. Well, I asked specifically for KZN so they just made it new KZN case size. I think that when sufficiently pressed/having high enough order, they will make anything in D10x40 (or more) mm as it's their pencap can. And pencaps are what? Pencaps are in fashion today so they have them to. But nobody other than crapxon makes 8x25+ size. Not yet though.

[Wester547]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

I stand corrected. Speaking of YXG, I've found them to be incredibly reliable and long-lasting. For example, many Asus boards from before the 00's (which used them exclusively) still work fine with them. I have quite a few YXG in my cap box, and none of them show any signs of failure. I even used a couple of 15 year old parts on the 5VSB circuit of an FSP PSU.

YXG and YXH are pretty good series. They are not as resilient to abuse as HE is, as evidenced by Pete's torture tests, but they might actually decompose in terms of their electrolyte at the same temperature extremes (the 220uF 10V ones did on the Xbox 360 boards that were overheated by way of the oven trick or reflow machines, I believe). Nichicons are cheaper than Rubycons, though - more reason to buy HE when all is said and done.

Rubycon's conventions are also a little confusing. For example, is YXG an analog of NCC KY? Is it an aqueous cap? What's Rubycon's equivalent of LXZ/FC/PW? What's with all their newer series? What's the difference between say YXJ and ZL?

YXG (and YXH, a 10,000 hour series) is equal to KY and HE, yes. YXG use ethylene glycol as its solvent as well, but I think it has closer to 25% water content, so quite a bit less than ZL. From the way Nichicon and Chemi-con give description to HE and KY, their water content is probably a bit higher, closer to 30% I'd imagine. KY was once a 6,000 hour series but was "upgraded" to 10,000 hours in April 2002 (reformed electrolyte?). YXJ is minaturized YXH - ZL is much lower ESR.

Take Nichicon PW for example. Slap a nylon bunge on it instead of synthetic rubber, call it "PV" series, and increase the endurance by thousands of hours. But that's usually not the case with these other series, is it?

Nichicon PA is Nichicon's lowest non-aqueous ESR series (they employ gamma butyrolactone as their electrolyte, I believe, which comprises 1-2% water content), falling somewhere in between HE and HD.

That's a very valid point you make now that I think about it. You mentioned before that they "pushed the chemistry too far". So it stands to reason that HD is in fact as good as anything else out there, if we assume that Rubycon didn't try to produce an 8x20 6.3V 1500uF part.

HD might be a -bit- more sensitive to heat than ZL and KZE, but not enough to be called unreliable. I find it interesting that the custom orders of KZEs, IE smaller case sizes, are not unreliable like the smaller case size HDs are (at least that one custom size), however.

And how could I forget about your own previous brilliant posts, good sir.

Haha, thanks. But I don't think my posts are enough to be deemed brilliant. I just don't like to leave any stone unturned as far as information goes. :P

There was either speculation or reference to Samxon importing their electrolyte from Japan for their GC/GD series. Now that you state that GK is a dud series as well, I'm begining to wonder if *most* of Samxon series are duds.

Not all of them. GF, GK, possibly SF, and GC and GD are known to be beleaguered with some issues (but GC and GD are more reliable than GF for sure), so their water base series in other words. Samxon do import their aluminum foil from Japan, but everything else - the electrolyte, the cases (the cans), the sleeves, the bungs, the aluminum tabs, the lead wires, the paper separators, are all manufactured in China. So that still leaves quite a window of possibility for premature failure.

Which brings me to RS series. RS is a miniaturized series, considering that their 16V 3300uF part in 10mm is only 30mm tall, should we assume its relative is something like KZH?

No, RS is equal to LXY/LXV/LXF, IIRC.

Something that might shine some light on all this would be private datasheets from PSU manufacturers. I don't know if you've noticed this, but in a lot of recent PSU reviews, there are Nippon caps with "W" printed on the sleeve as the series. Now I've come across private Nippon datasheets on the web before, which is how I learned that when they get a custom order, they print "W" on the sleeve. What I don't understand then is why they didn't do this for Behemot for his custom KZN order.

Yup, "W" is NCC's new custom order series. A shame, because it would be very difficult to discern where they are supposed to fall ESR wise with no datasheets. You would need something like a LC102 or LC103 Senscore in order to get a truly accurate ESR reading. I think "TM", "TMZ", "TMJ", and "TMV" were Chemi-con's custom series codes before the fact. Maybe Behemot needs to order in a larger volume to receive the "W" designation on the sleeve. Hard to say for certain. However, this is different from series only available to OEMs, for which no datasheets exist - those are not custom series, just series unavailable to the consumer.

I must commend you on your speculation of the electrolyte differences between the series. It's a topic which should be discussed much more in depth.

Thanks, and I agree. It's hapless how tight lipped manufactures are about the electrolytic solution and materials, but understandable that they would be safe guarding such secrets. Even if we perform autopsies on them, we really need high end scientific equipment to make sense of the raw materials and reasons for failure.

[mockingbird]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Actually, Rubycon ZL was the first major evolution in low ESR capacitors.

I stand corrected. Speaking of YXG, I've found them to be incredibly reliable and long-lasting. For example, many Asus boards from before the 00's (which used them exclusively) still work fine with them. I have quite a few YXG in my cap box, and none of them show any signs of failure. I even used a couple of 15 year old parts on the 5VSB circuit of an FSP PSU.

The most bizarre part about that is that UCC claims that KY, KZE, KZG, KZA, and KZJ all use the same electrolyte technology in their datasheets. KZH is said to use a "unique water base electrolyte" and that's it. So either they pushed the electrolyte too far with KZG and KZJ or Chemi-con are unable to control the aggressiveness of their electrolyte when the concentration of H2O reaches a certain threshold (you need to increase the water content or the amount of ions in the electrolyte in order to increase conductivity).

Rubycon's conventions are also a little confusing. For example, is YXG an analog of NCC KY? Is it an aqueous cap? What's Rubycon's equivalent of LXZ/FC/PW? What's with all their newer series? What's the difference between say YXJ and ZL?

Take Nichicon PW for example. Slap a nylon bunge on it instead of synthetic rubber, call it "PV" series, and increase the endurance by thousands of hours. But that's usually not the case with these other series, is it?

Only the 1500uF 6.3V Nichicon HDs in 8x20 case sizes are known to be unreliable.

That's a very valid point you make now that I think about it. You mentioned before that they "pushed the chemistry too far". So it stands to reason that HD is in fact as good as anything else out there, if we assume that Rubycon didn't try to produce an 8x20 6.3V 1500uF part.

Samxon GK is actually the equivalent. Known to be unreliable.

Ok thanks. I was having trouble finding the Samxon version of ZL on their site as I was scanning their datasheets.

His torture test results were certainly intriguing, but they don't really reflect how these series perform under real world conditions.

And how could I forget about your own previous brilliant posts, good sir.

There was either speculation or reference to Samxon importing their electrolyte from Japan for their GC/GD series. Now that you state that GK is a dud series as well, I'm begining to wonder if *most* of Samxon series are duds.

Which brings me to RS series. RS is a miniaturized series, considering that their 16V 3300uF part in 10mm is only 30mm tall, should we assume its relative is something like KZH?

Something that might shine some light on all this would be private datasheets from PSU manufacturers. I don't know if you've noticed this, but in a lot of recent PSU reviews, there are Nippon caps with "W" printed on the sleeve as the series. Now I've come across private Nippon datasheets on the web before, which is how I learned that when they get a custom order, they print "W" on the sleeve. What I don't understand then is why they didn't do this for Behemot for his custom KZN order.

I must commend you on your speculation of the electrolyte differences between the series. It's a topic which should be discussed much more in depth.

[Wester547]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

I wonder how varied characteristics of aluminum/electrolyte quality have an effect on the cap.

I think the electrolyte has the biggest ramifications on the overall reliability, longevity, construction, and chemistry of an electrolytic. This is how series that otherwise are comprised of high quality materials - like KZG and KZJ - are so notorious for failure that they bulge in storage.

Let's focus on KZE-class series. I've read recently that that was the first major evolution in low ESR caps, in that it employs an aqueous electrolyte, but is stabilized with a proprietary formula. Let's examine some of the contenders:

Actually, Rubycon ZL was the first major evolution in low ESR capacitors. Rubycon ZL (and ZA) went into production in 1998, and Chemi-con KY, KZE, and KZG all went into production in 2001, around the same time (and Nichicon HD and HC in early 1999, particularly in the nylon laminated Pb-free cases coated with lacquer and whose lead wires are CP tinned).

Rubycon was the first company to find the proper mixture of inhibitors to suppress the aggressiveness of electrolytic solutions that contain a relatively high amount of H2O content. ZL uses ethylene glycol (an organic solvent) as its solvent and ammonium salts as its solution, working out to roughly 40% H2O content. Rubycon's ZL series was shown to have conductivity in the electrolyte that triples that of previous low ESR series (such as YXG).

UCC KZE - Reliable, very few reports of failure (and only then under extreme conditions). Do not bulge in storage

The most bizarre part about that is that UCC claims that KY, KZE, KZG, KZA, and KZJ all use the same electrolyte technology in their datasheets. KZH is said to use a "unique water base electrolyte" and that's it. So either they pushed the electrolyte too far with KZG and KZJ or Chemi-con are unable to control the aggressiveness of their electrolyte when the concentration of H2O reaches a certain threshold (you need to increase the water content or the amount of ions in the electrolyte in order to increase conductivity).

Nichicon HD - Also reliable, but 8mm variants have been found to bulge in storage

Only the 1500uF 6.3V Nichicon HDs in 8x20 case sizes are known to be unreliable. All other HDs, no matter their case sizes, are good IMO. I think some early HDs and HCs were known to fail because they lack the sleeve and that increases their heat dissipation quite a bit.

Rubycon ZL - As reliable as KZE. No known reports of any bizarre failures

Yup, Rubycon ZLs are almost bullet proof.

Panasonic FM - As reliable as KZE, perhaps even superior

Panasonic FF is actually the direct across to KZE grade capacitors, FM is a bit lower ESR I think. Panasonic FF is known to be reliable despite only being a 2,000 hour series.

Sanyo WX - Not as reliable as KZE, sensitive to heat?

Yes. It's certainly strange how WG seems to be more reliable, but WF is definitely worse.

Samxon SH/SK - Do these even exist? The only Samxon capacitors I ever see in equipment are high-voltage primaries or dud series like GF. Someone should open up their X-CON polymers and compare them to UCC parts.

Samxon GK is actually the equivalent. Known to be unreliable.

Now the question is, when does a KZE-class cap hold up better? When the aluminum is purer, or when the electrolyte is more stable? In an aqueous cap, I would assume that the electrolyte is more important. But non-aqueous series like PW/LXZ/FC class knock-offs might hold up better with purer aluminum, even if the electrolyte is less stable.

Presumably both, but I think the electrolyte is the biggest factor, as stated above.

So it's not that simple. It's a shame Pete from CA isn't that active here anymore. I'm sure he'd have some great insight on this.

His torture test results were certainly intriguing, but they don't really reflect how these series perform under real world conditions.

[mockingbird]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

I wonder how varied characteristics of aluminum/electrolyte quality have an effect on the cap.

Let's focus on KZE-class series. I've read recently that that was the first major evolution in low ESR caps, in that it employs an aqueous electrolyte, but is stabilized with a proprietary formula. Let's examine some of the contenders:

UCC KZE - Reliable, very few reports of failure (and only then under extreme conditions). Do not bulge in storage
Nichicon HD - Also reliable, but 8mm variants have been found to bulge in storage
Rubycon ZL - As reliable as KZE. No known reports of any bizarre failures
Panasonic FM - As reliable as KZE, perhaps even superior
Sanyo WX - Not as reliable as KZE, sensitive to heat?
Illinois KXM - Probably as good as KZE
Nic NRSG - Probably as good as KZE. No personal experience whatsoever with brand
Samxon SH/SK - Do these even exist? The only Samxon capacitors I ever see in equipment are high-voltage primaries or dud series like GF. Someone should open up their X-CON polymers and compare them to UCC parts.

Now the question is, when does a KZE-class cap hold up better? When the aluminum is purer, or when the electrolyte is more stable? In an aqueous cap, I would assume that the electrolyte is more important. But non-aqueous series like PW/LXZ/FC class knock-offs might hold up better with purer aluminum, even if the electrolyte is less stable.

So it's not that simple. It's a shame Pete from CA isn't that active here anymore. I'm sure he'd have some great insight on this.

[Wester547]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Okay, I hate to double post, but I was wrong. Man Yue do get their aluminum foil from Japan, so the fault must lie within their electrolyte:

http://www.jcc-foil.co.jp/eng/company/outline.html

Taicon hold claim to having sourced their aluminum foil from the same company since 1995, by the by. Samwha (a Korean joint venture established with Nichicon in 1973) also claims that they import their aluminum from Japan.... that I have a bit of a harder time giving credence to.

There is another company called Liton which unfortunately is an offshoot of Lelon. They produce and manufacture their own aluminum in Taiwan, and Toshin Kogyo are one of their customers (but they also import their aluminum from Japan via JCC).

[Wester547]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

I have used up my stock of 8mm GC caps, none have come back...
Something always has to be said for a real shitty design where polymer caps should have been used instead.
Or perhaps as in Intel's case not a shitty linear regulator and a 5 year old almost deprecated chipset in a new design, examples:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14924
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...721#post286721

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...2&postcount=12
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...&postcount=172
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...&postcount=167
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...&postcount=164

Cases like that make me nervous about GC and even GD (there are some more instances of failed GDs if you look around the forum). Especially the one where 400+ units went bad in a year where the Rubycons were still okay. If a good company like Nippon Chemi-con managed to foul up their ultra-low ESR grade of lytics, I wouldn't be taken aback if Samxon had some issues with their own grade of lytics. Or maybe they just had a bad batch.

Yea I've also used quite a few of those without problems.
It's interesting because if you look at the chart I posted before.
We know that GF & GK are bad.
SF I don't have any idea about, never seen before.
But just like I would not call Rubycon MCZ bad from the one failure in the link I posted above of a shitty design.
I wont call it bad here either based on one failure.
That said both RS and GT which I have used extensively seem to be based off SF, which in turn is based on GF which is a bad design.
But I think they fixed the series after GF, look at this old quote from Big Pope:

Here is another case of failed SFs. Samxon may be more like Taicon. Taicon only have a couple series that fail with disconcerting frequency - HD and HI (equal to HM, and possibly HL, equal to HN). Otherwise, unless they overheated, Taicon seem to do well enough. Nichicon owns 37% of Taicon - enough to put them ahead of most of the Taiwanese and Chinese brands. With that said, Taicon is actually on the -bad- listing here and Samxon isn't.

I don't think Rubycon MCZ is bad but weak. They are sensitive enough to heat to be less than desirable in locations that run hot.

[Behemot]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Airmail over Europe usually takes couple days. Does not depend if from Prague or somewhere in Netherlands.

[Per Hansson]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

It's a shame that Samxon's other series arent as popular, because we don't really know how good the quality is. BigPope had a lot of them listed in his catalog, (Like GT for example), but I've not been able to contact him.

I've used quite a few GT caps in monitors etc and never had a problem with them.

Now as for GC/GD and their reliability, there are plenty of examples of 8mm part failures on Intel boards for example. And I've defended Samxon before, but that was before I saw the pics of their failure.

I have used up my stock of 8mm GC caps, none have come back...
Something always has to be said for a real shitty design where polymer caps should have been used instead.
Or perhaps as in Intel's case not a shitty linear regulator and a 5 year old almost deprecated chipset in a new design, examples:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14924
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...721#post286721

Having said that, I have used a fair amount of Samxon RS series and they are holding up well.

Yea I've also used quite a few of those without problems.
It's interesting because if you look at the chart I posted before.
We know that GF & GK are bad.
SF I don't have any idea about, never seen before.
But just like I would not call Rubycon MCZ bad from the one failure in the link I posted above of a shitty design.
I wont call it bad here either based on one failure.
That said both RS and GT which I have used extensively seem to be based off SF, which in turn is based on GF which is a bad design.
But I think they fixed the series after GF, look at this old quote from Big Pope:

Actually, no need surprise for this matter. This is not the first time i saw Samxon GF 470uF 16V/25V failure on some hot hardwares, like LCD monitors. GF series is the old series(the first type) of low ESR caps and need more improves. See the Samxon Series Charts here -> http://www.manyue.com/samxon_series_chart.html

By this reason, i always have some vigilance for GF series and sell GF series very carefully. I never get any stock of GF series, except 330uF 35V D10mm, which i got the stock on end of last year, because i want to test it on some Gigabyte motherbaords.

I have installed much of Samxon GF 330uF 35V on some Gigabyte old motherbaords from DEC 2006 till to now. There is no any failure.

:cough: good prices :cough:

Behemot: "Good prices" is of course relative.
The store Elfa is a Swedish distributor, so there is no added import tax, and quick shipping.
That is the main advantage for me, because if I don't already have a cap in stock and need it for a repair I usually need it very quickly...
Though they recently moved their warehouse from Sweden to the Netherlands.
They claim it will not affect shipping times but we will see...

[Behemot]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Nowdays Elfa has expanded their selection of low ESR capacitors significantly and I can buy most of the Japanese brands directly from them at good prices.

:cough: good prices :cough:

M8, I just looked at their "good prices". As for low-ESR (SMPS) goes, I checked my stock of D8 6.3-16 V caps against their. Everything they have is at least 3 times as expensive, half of the caps are not on stock. Not to mention they surely do not stock any D10 3300/16 caps. I have teh feeling the D10 stock situation will be similar. Are you really sure you don't want to check my stock next time so you can see really "good prices"?

Plus if I am not mistaken, you also have to pay VAT ransom, in such case it will be 4times as expensive. I think that saving about 75 % is quite some money…

mockingbird: Samxon caps are now mostly obsolete, there is no reason to stock the ordinary series but special can sizes. As for D8 goes, I have only seen bad Pannies, Rubycons. Not too many. They are amongst the most used D8 caps, I have not really seen that much of Chemi-Cons, Nichicons or Samxons in D8 on MoBos.

[mockingbird]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

It's a shame that Samxon's other series arent as popular, because we don't really know how good the quality is. BigPope had a lot of them listed in his catalog, (Like GT for example), but I've not been able to contact him.

Now as for GC/GD and their reliability, there are plenty of examples of 8mm part failures on Intel boards for example. And I've defended Samxon before, but that was before I saw the pics of their failure.

Having said that, I have used a fair amount of Samxon RS series and they are holding up well. And I can also vouch for the 10mm GC series. I have the 16V 3300uF ones in a server that must have at least a couple thousand hours of use.

[Wester547]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

I'd guess that monitor has 23,000 - 26,000 running hours based on that. And the SF series seems genuine:

https://cdn.badcaps-static.com/pdfs/...cb848388c3.pdf

Looks like it's supposed to be the "long life" version of GF (in larger case sizes)... whatever that means.

[ReeceyBurger123]

Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

What my Ipad makes it look green guess just bad exposure on the image. I have alos never heard of the Sf series.