Panasonic FMs

[Krankshaft]

I am recapping the secondary of a power supply my other Antec that has low ESR Fuhjyyu caps.

I have read that the Panasonic FMs are a good brand for this.

However when I found them and checked their datasheet it only listed them as low impedance not low ESR.

Here is a link to the datasheet:



Would the FMs work well for this application?

What about FLs would they be better?

What other brands and series' would you recommend?

Thanks in advance.

[shadow]

Re: Panasonic FMs

I do not really know for sure, however check out this thread.
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2280

That should give you most of your answers.

[Super Nade]

Re: Panasonic FMs

I've used FM's and UCC on the secondary side of the blown up Antec I obtained. Works like a charm. Since I'm paranoid and dead set biased against Fujjhyu, I removed the primary cans and replaced them with NCC.

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Panasonic FMs

ESR means "Equivalent Series Resistance"; Impedance is the vector sum of the capacitance, the ESR and the ESL (Equivalent Series Inductance). Listing ESR in spec sheets was common practice in the 70s and early 80s, but it became common practice to specify impedance in the mid or late 80s.

[starfury1]

Re: Panasonic FMs

Yeah terms can be a bit cloudy, PeteS has cleared that somewhat, thanks

The Panasonic FM are according to the sheets better spec'ed then the FC
The FM are made in Asia (more or less) and FC Japan from what I understand.
(go figure and yeah funny they mention Japan on that PDF??? )

They are low ESR type capacitors

There reason people here tend to use them is they are a bit more available then others
and a little cheaper (FM series)

I am not sure if you would call them the cream of the cream but much better then the crap you usually find in PSU's and some MB's

So yeah they are what you need

[Krankshaft]

Re: Panasonic FMs

Since I'm paranoid and dead set biased against Fujjhyu, I removed the primary cans and replaced them with NCC.

Oddly enough the primary caps on my supply are Panasonic so thats one less thing for me to hunt down.

Thanks for all the help guys.

[gastorgrab]

Re: Panasonic FMs

Would FC's last longer in this case. Does it depend on the application?
.

[starfury1]

Re: Panasonic FMs

Well here's the PDF of the Panasonic FC series

When I was looking at prices the FC series were more expensive then the FM series (from RS components in Oz)

But the specs on the FM from the pdf is better,
note the endurance 2000~7000Hrs @105C ( 1000~5000 FC)
and the fact they say 40~70 % better low impedance then FC

Maybe its quality or more subtle aspects that are better with the FC
or just price of labour in Japan is higher being reflected in prices...don't know

My understanding was the FC was a better series but this doesn't seem to show in the PDF's.....spec wise (quality wise probably)

So may thoughts are if the quality of the FC series is better then FM series then possibly they would/should last longer.

Although the specs are better on the FM device for ESR and ripple
(for same C) so these should handle a pounding better then FC ?
(Therefore last longer even if they are lesser quality)

Anyway bottom line both should be able to do the job and last a reasonably long time,
not maybe the ultimate cap for the job but a hell of a lot better then some of the rubbish thats used in some psu's)

someone who is more familiar with both series maybe able to shed a better light on this thought.

Just my thoughts on it

Cheers

[linuxguru]

Re: Panasonic FMs

1) FC is non-aqueous, not sure about FM. Non-aqueous is preferable for PSUs and other applications where high temperature may be a concern. They also age more gracefully than aqueous for applications like high-end audio.

2) FCs have a cult following among audio/Hi-Fi enthusiasts/modders as relatively inexpensive but great-sounding caps (both for bypass and coupling). They cost a fraction of the gold-plated snake-oil stuff like Black Gates and so on.

3) They were mostly made in Japan, unlike some of their successor series, which are also made in Malaysia.

All 3 reasons will prop up their retail pricing, regardless of higher-spec'ed alternatives (looking ruefully at my dwindling stockpile of FC and FK).

[Krankshaft]

Re: Panasonic FMs

Thanks again I've decided to buy the FCs I found them at Farnell.

The rest of the Fuhjyuu caps (black ones) I looked up on the manufacturers site by series (TN) and they were general use so I just put 105C Chemicons in their place.

Its not much of a suprise though since the most stressed caps in any power supply are the input filters and the output filters.

[gonzo0815]

Re: Panasonic FMs

From my point of view, the main difference between FC and FM series are as already mentioned the electrolyte.

For IT stuff, i would never bother to use any of the two series, based upon price and availability i think i would tend to the FM`s.

For other stuff, with more sophisticated requirements and far more expensive stuff like audio and analog circuits in general etc. i think i would tend to use the FC ones, assuming, that the non aqueous electrolyte is generally probably far more mature and inherently safer regarding aging, h2 generation, corrosion etc.

What i want to point out is, that during may be five or ten years the FM would probably be always the better series, but on the other hand, the FC`s ones would probably still be withing spec after 10+ years of use.

But that`s just my two cents about that, as may practical knowledge is limited compared with may others here.

[Super Nade]

Re: Panasonic FMs

Interesting. I had no clue regarding the nature of the FC's. They were not available at digikey when I looked, but in any case, I went with the standard FM's which I use all the time.

For PSU's I always go with UCC/NCC due to easy availability.

[starfury1]

Re: Panasonic FMs

Thanks linuxguru...I knew there had to be something to it
(just didn't know or recall what)

So fabrication method may be it...it makes sense...

Just so we know....

aqueous solution
A solution with water as the solvent

non-aqueous solution
A solution with the solvent anything but water (e.g., organic or inorganic liquid, molten salt).

(If I got it right)

From this link here

On capacitors construction etc here
If anyone wants to strain their brain

Seems the FM FC were discussed here on our very own forums
(googling around to trying to confirm what the FM's are...were do I end up?? back here LOL)

"Capacitor Life expectancy"

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3257

PeteS said

The FM series has an aqueous electrolyte.

So that hopefully clears that up

Hope it all goes smoothly for you Krankshaft

Cheers

[starfury1]

Re: Panasonic FMs

Thanks Gonzo...thought you would put your 2 cents worth in

You posted while I was doing mine

Super Nad with me FM's seemed easier to get at the time a bit bigger range then FC's

[kc8adu]

Re: Panasonic FMs

fc are availible at digikey.
i order lots of them and fm

[Logistics]

Re: Panasonic FMs

One reason you will find to use an FC over an FM is in the case you need a cap in a 4mm diameter.

[Krankshaft]

Re: Panasonic FMs

Well don't I feel embarrassed I just got the caps today the others on the secondary went in well. With a bit of moving wires and such. But one of the 4700uf caps won't fit .

It seems like the originals were 10mm and these were 12.5. In other areas this wasn't a problem but for the final 4700uf in the back there was no way to get it between the two inductors.

So I checked the datasheet and Panasonic doesn't make the 4700 in 10mm.

Ugh thanks again Antec .

Do you guys happen to know who can get me 4700uf at 6.3V with a 10mm body?

Brand doesn't matter as long as its low ESR and a good brand.

Would TC have sizes like this?

[starfury1]

Re: Panasonic FMs

Tc would I guess have something to do the job, PM him

Yeah !.... thats a real trap and it should probably have been mentioned
(although there would be enough posts around here on size)

The size of pannies in the larger values are often 12.5mm not 10mm or 8mm as seems to be required a lot so it is something to check when doing PSU's and MB's.....
If you are intending on recapping Id source a few cause its something you will run into
and sometimes there is just no getting around the size you need
(I am guessing no way you can rework the coils for a little more room)

Sure someone here could tell you what to go for thought in a 10mm diameter