Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

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  • bbjunkie
    Badcaps Veteran
    • Dec 2011
    • 301

    #1

    Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

    This set came into my possession stuck in standby, would switch on for a second or so but no picture or sound, then switch off again.

    After doing a bit of research on the web I discovered that I might have some blown transistors right before the inverter transformers which there are four of on the board (see attached pic with two transformers and 4 of the transistors removed for testing) There are two of these 2SD965 transistors per transformer.

    Long story short, I pulled and checked two of the transformers for short circuit, they both tested the same (0.6 ohms on primarys and 370 ohms on secondaries) so I assume they are fine.

    I refitted the transformers and removed the transistors Q7 thru Q14 and tried to power up, the set came on and stayed on - I had audio (obviously no video)

    Fitted the new transistors and powered it up again, thought I had cured it, it came out of standby for about 5-6 seconds then there was like a crack noise that sounded like a component blowing around the top of the tv somewhere (or perhaps it was my new transistors, difficult to say)

    So, now im back to square one.. Am I right in thinking that this must be a CCFL problem as there is nothing wrong with the transformers? Would I do damage if I try replacing the transistors again and leave the HT leads off the tubes to eliminate them? (can the inverter cope with no load?)

    Cheers,

    Jim

    ps again, please excuse the quality of photo - I really need to get better lighting and camera for the workshop
    Attached Files
    Last edited by bbjunkie; 12-21-2011, 07:14 PM.
  • tom66
    EVs Rule
    • Apr 2011
    • 32560
    • UK

    #2
    Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

    A lot of BenQ monitors have problems with the solder joints around the inverter transformers cracking which kills the transistors... not sure why and not sure if it applies to yours but... Try re-touching all the solder joints around the transformers, and replace the transistors. You can test these transistors for short circuit (they should appear open.)
    Last edited by tom66; 12-21-2011, 07:43 PM.
    Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
    For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

    Comment

    • PlainBill
      Badcaps Legend
      • Feb 2009
      • 7034
      • USA

      #3
      Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

      Also check the blue caps near the inverter transformers. Also check any diodes in the area.

      PlainBill
      For a number of reasons, both health and personal, I will no longer be active on this board. Any PMs asking for assistance will be ignored.

      Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.

      Comment

      • bbjunkie
        Badcaps Veteran
        • Dec 2011
        • 301

        #4
        Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

        Nice call there PlainBill - One of the blue caps just south of the inverter transformers was showing well low readings. One measured 350pf while the other measured just 3pf (a resistance test showed it wasn't shorted)
        Both have the same markings so I am confident the 3pf one is faulty.

        Didnt have enough time to do much else today, being dragged out by the missus

        Post more tomorrow

        Jim

        Comment

        • bbjunkie
          Badcaps Veteran
          • Dec 2011
          • 301

          #5
          Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

          Think I need to check those readings.. just realised they should be 27pf +/- 5% -- right?

          Also, seem to be having difficulty locating these components, are they polyester dipped/ceramic/silver mica? or will any 27pf 250v capacitor be suitable?
          Last edited by bbjunkie; 12-27-2011, 01:55 AM.

          Comment

          • tom66
            EVs Rule
            • Apr 2011
            • 32560
            • UK

            #6
            Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

            Originally posted by bbjunkie
            Think I need to check those readings.. just realised they should be 27pf +/- 5% -- right?

            Also, seem to be having difficulty locating these components, are they polyester dipped/ceramic/silver mica? or will any 27pf 250v capacitor be suitable?
            no, they are probably 5kV devices. http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/630...a270kat3a.html
            Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
            For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

            Comment

            • bbjunkie
              Badcaps Veteran
              • Dec 2011
              • 301

              #7
              Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

              Sorry, overlooked saying the originals were rated at 250v (they are on the primary side of the transformer)

              Comment

              • PlainBill
                Badcaps Legend
                • Feb 2009
                • 7034
                • USA

                #8
                Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

                Originally posted by bbjunkie
                Think I need to check those readings.. just realised they should be 27pf +/- 5% -- right?

                Also, seem to be having difficulty locating these components, are they polyester dipped/ceramic/silver mica? or will any 27pf 250v capacitor be suitable?
                These caps set the frequency for the Royer oscillators. The value can vary with the design, but the one I had die in a Viewsonic (Belinea) monitor was 150nF. Are there any numbers on them?

                PlainBill
                For a number of reasons, both health and personal, I will no longer be active on this board. Any PMs asking for assistance will be ignored.

                Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.

                Comment

                • bbjunkie
                  Badcaps Veteran
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 301

                  #9
                  Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

                  Yes, they are labelled 27J 250v

                  Comment

                  • PlainBill
                    Badcaps Legend
                    • Feb 2009
                    • 7034
                    • USA

                    #10
                    Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

                    Originally posted by bbjunkie
                    Yes, they are labelled 27J 250v
                    That would indeed be 27 pF. Strange, that is much lower than I would have expected. I would compare the replacements to the originals with your DMM.

                    PlainBill
                    For a number of reasons, both health and personal, I will no longer be active on this board. Any PMs asking for assistance will be ignored.

                    Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.

                    Comment

                    • tom66
                      EVs Rule
                      • Apr 2011
                      • 32560
                      • UK

                      #11
                      Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

                      Originally posted by PlainBill
                      That would indeed be 27 pF. Strange, that is much lower than I would have expected. I would compare the replacements to the originals with your DMM.

                      PlainBill
                      Maybe they are getting away with running them at 700V for about a year before they die - but I would expect immediate breakdown of the dielectric...
                      Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
                      For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

                      Comment

                      • PlainBill
                        Badcaps Legend
                        • Feb 2009
                        • 7034
                        • USA

                        #12
                        Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

                        Originally posted by tom66
                        Maybe they are getting away with running them at 700V for about a year before they die - but I would expect immediate breakdown of the dielectric...
                        No, there is a failure to communicate. The caps I was referring to are circled in blue in the picture of the inverter. They are the equivalent of C24 and C25 (circled in teal) in the schematic of a different inverter that uses Royer oscillators in it's inverter. They set the oscillator frequency.

                        The blue ceramic caps are usually high voltage (1-3KV) types.

                        PlainBill
                        Attached Files
                        For a number of reasons, both health and personal, I will no longer be active on this board. Any PMs asking for assistance will be ignored.

                        Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.

                        Comment

                        • bbjunkie
                          Badcaps Veteran
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 301

                          #13
                          Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

                          Hi PlainBill, hope you are enjoying the holiday season.

                          The caps you circled are indeed the ones I removed and they are definitely 27J 250V
                          Perhaps this would point to why they have failed? Finding these caps is near impossible. I have found some 500V rated ones, I guess these would do.. or should I go for an even higher rating?

                          Your schematic seems different to my layout.. from memory (and mine isn't great - I will recheck when im in the workshop next) the pair of caps you have circled in my photo are in parallel.

                          Hope to get some better photos up later.

                          Jim

                          Comment

                          • tom66
                            EVs Rule
                            • Apr 2011
                            • 32560
                            • UK

                            #14
                            Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

                            Originally posted by bbjunkie
                            Hi PlainBill, hope you are enjoying the holiday season.

                            The caps you circled are indeed the ones I removed and they are definitely 27J 250V
                            Perhaps this would point to why they have failed? Finding these caps is near impossible. I have found some 500V rated ones, I guess these would do.. or should I go for an even higher rating?

                            Your schematic seems different to my layout.. from memory (and mine isn't great - I will recheck when im in the workshop next) the pair of caps you have circled in my photo are in parallel.

                            Hope to get some better photos up later.

                            Jim
                            250V there should be fine. Heck - the inverter probably isn't powered by more than 24V, so even 50V ceramic caps would do. 250V was probably chosen because it is commonly found on the primary side of power supplies and so is cheaper. Just like 3.579545 MHz xtals are common in lots of things because they are also used in TVs and they are cheaper.
                            Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
                            For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

                            Comment

                            • PlainBill
                              Badcaps Legend
                              • Feb 2009
                              • 7034
                              • USA

                              #15
                              Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

                              Originally posted by bbjunkie
                              Hi PlainBill, hope you are enjoying the holiday season.

                              The caps you circled are indeed the ones I removed and they are definitely 27J 250V
                              Perhaps this would point to why they have failed? Finding these caps is near impossible. I have found some 500V rated ones, I guess these would do.. or should I go for an even higher rating?

                              Your schematic seems different to my layout.. from memory (and mine isn't great - I will recheck when im in the workshop next) the pair of caps you have circled in my photo are in parallel.

                              Hope to get some better photos up later.

                              Jim
                              If the caps on the inverter are in parallel, something completely different is going on. Verify the readings you got on the two caps; by any chance was the 350pF actually 350nF?

                              PlainBill
                              For a number of reasons, both health and personal, I will no longer be active on this board. Any PMs asking for assistance will be ignored.

                              Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.

                              Comment

                              • bbjunkie
                                Badcaps Veteran
                                • Dec 2011
                                • 301

                                #16
                                Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

                                Caps measured again and are showing 300pf (actually reading 0.332nf on the DMM which is reading 0.032nf with nothing connected) and 24pf (0.056nf on the DMM)

                                With a closer look I have noticed the marking on the cap actually has a . in front of the 27J

                                I googled this item to find a replacement, first hit surprisingly is a thread on another forum about the exact same inverter problem.

                                The outcome of reading this thread is that it has been said they are 0.27uf or 270nf

                                Before I replace these with 270nf can anyone confirm this would be true?

                                Also, checked and they are definitley in paralell.

                                Comment

                                • tom66
                                  EVs Rule
                                  • Apr 2011
                                  • 32560
                                  • UK

                                  #17
                                  Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

                                  How big are the capacitors?

                                  A rough order of capacitance can be estimated from size.

                                  From the photo, it looks like it might be in the ~100nF range, way too big to be pF. However, there are other reasons a capacitor might be big including reliability, safety, voltage, dielectric...
                                  Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
                                  For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

                                  Comment

                                  • bbjunkie
                                    Badcaps Veteran
                                    • Dec 2011
                                    • 301

                                    #18
                                    Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

                                    in the region of 12mm long 5mm thick and 13mm tall

                                    Comment

                                    • tom66
                                      EVs Rule
                                      • Apr 2011
                                      • 32560
                                      • UK

                                      #19
                                      Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

                                      Originally posted by bbjunkie
                                      in the region of 12mm long 5mm thick and 13mm tall
                                      So I would go for nanofarad range, maybe 270nF, they seem too big with that voltage rating to be pF. Just a guess though. The other half of the inverter wouldn't happen to have working caps?
                                      Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
                                      For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

                                      Comment

                                      • bbjunkie
                                        Badcaps Veteran
                                        • Dec 2011
                                        • 301

                                        #20
                                        Re: Matsui LM20N2 inverter problem

                                        There is only two of these caps on the board.

                                        Comment

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