Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

[diif]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

Twist nuts and tape sounds nasty.
Over here a qualified electrician is required to install most things, definitely a new consumer unit as they are the only ones that can issue a certificate to show it's been done properly. (I had one fitted a couple of years ago, along with the first fix for 30 down lighters and kitchen sockets).

For wire stripping I've always used a Stanley knife.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

Tools to cut big gauge wires, snake to pull the new wires if needed, hand tools, etc.
Of you trying to hire someone to observe you doing the work, he will have to basically teach you at the same time if you never done the work before so ask him if he is willing to teach you at the same time because it will take more time when you run into problems.

I got a friend who owns one of those wire snakes. I've never heard of them before but I've heard of people pulling wire through. I think maybe it's getting time for us to purchase one. They're not too expensive, from what I've heard, 15$ maybe....

The tools to cut the big gauge wire...that's something I'll need help with, for sure. I was looking at the wire that goes into my panel here at this house and honestly, I can't figure out how they cut it. I was thinking maybe a freaking hacksaw or something! That's huge!!!

I wonder if they make special tools for stripping the sheathing off the romex. The last stuff I had was good wiring but all three wires inside were insulated from each other with the sheathing. In the past, I seem to remember the inside wires just having the rubber around them but the sheathing just going around all three. With this 10/2, I had to use a box cutter and carefully go down the middle where the bare was and then carefully slice down the sides to free the black and white wires. It was a real pain. If I accidently cut too deep, I had to snip the wire and start all over again. Wish there was special tool for that, like the stuff they have for ethernet. They got a tool to remove the outer sheath.

I've also seen some videos where it seems there's some wire strippers out there that have a gauge on them so you strip the wire for receptacles and switches and stuff to the perfect length. No bare wire showing. I don't got any strippers like that. I wonder if Keeney or you would know where I'd find a nice pair like that. Keeney suggested a brand name. I got a mix of different brand name tools. I got Craftsman for certain things, NAPA for others, and then a mix of tools that I've seem to of found work really well and hold up real well. Don't know who made half the stuff. I got a real nice stripper for the smaller gauges that work real nice. The stuff for the larger gauge isn't nothing special, but eh.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

twist-nut?
damn your "safety standards" are low!
if i ever caught someone using those i would hurt them!

What do you guys use? I'm sure there's times when you need to connect two or more wires together...when used properly, those wire nuts seem pretty secure. I know I can't physically pull one off that I put on. I can unscrew it, but pulling it off doesn't seem to work. That's before I tape them, I always give them a nice tug, to make sure they're secure. If they're not, I've used the wrong side or twisted the wire inside incorrectly.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

You will need staples for securing the romex to wood. The best staples, if you can get them, have plastic on them where they come in contact with the romex sheathing. When you hammer the staples the idea is to not pinch the wire, but to make it so the romex sheathing can not move back and forth under the staple yet not to crush the sheathing. All solid wire needs to be twisted prior to putting a twist nut on. I even twist the stranded wire. I also wrap a piece of electrical tape around the bottom of the twist nut and insulation clockwise direction, same way the twist nut is tightened, of the wire to make sure it stays secure to wire. I like the twist nuts that do not have wings to them as those are less bulky in the box. Also, when you put a wire around a screw you want go in the same direction so the wire twist tighter around the screw instead of going against the grain.

I don't think I'll be running much wire...there's two panels already there. I was hoping the wires would be long enough where I could put the new larger panel in the middle of where the old two are and just hook them up to new breakers. Hopefully, I don't have to extend any wires but even if I did, wouldn't I just use a junction box and wire nuts inside to connect the new wire to the old? I wouldn't actually be running new wire from the receptacles / switches / fans / whatever to the new panel I wouldn't think. I don't think I'd need to worry a lot about the NM staples.

The staples I have are the newer kind that are plastic. Here's the ones I've used last and currently own a bunch of: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-B...S-75/100137358

I got the older style too (the ones that are just metallic) but like you, I prefer the plastic ones. You don't really gotta worry about them pinching the wire so much, especially if you get the right sized ones. I got a bunch of different plastic ones, the ones I linked too are the ones I last bought, for this project, because of the heavier gauge wire I was using.

I never played with stranded wire for AC, I didn't even know stuff like that existed. I've always had solid. The wire nuts aren't a problem, but I've been thinking. Normally, I'll do the black electrical tape at the bottom like you was talking, just to make sure it stays on. I always go with the twist, never against, so I'm good there. I took a basic electricity class back in school and we learned how to wire up receptacles and switches. We'd frame a fake wall and then wire it up properly. I've been studying the NEC and see where they say you're allowed to solder the wires. Is that better? I wouldn't have to worry about them ever coming off, although I have to say, in all my years, when properly done, I don't think I've ever had a wirenut just come off by itself. The down fall would be the next person working on it, they'd need to have a soldering iron to undo the connection. What do you think?

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

I am a big believer in Klein tools. You need "insulated handles" to large linemen pliers/cutters for twisting solid wire and cutting wire, strippers that have the exact gauge holes in the front part of the tool, long nose pliers for turning wire in a shape to go around the screws, screwdrivers and large diagonal cutters for cutting the sheathing of the romex off. The diagonal cutters are useful after one strips the romex with the box cutter. You can reach in the receptacle box and cut the sheathing as far back as you can to allow maximum room in the box. It would also be useful to have a box knife for cutting down the middle of the romex to strip the sheathing. One has to be very careful with the box cutter so as not to cut through the insulation on the line or neutral wires. The middle wire usually is a ground wire. A light pressure on the romex sheathing will mark the sheathing with out completely cutting through. The very end of the wire one can cut through so you can grab the sheathing pulling it to strip in off of the wires.
Also, it would be useful to learn how to do this for any future project you may have.
Lastly a linesmen's tool belt so you can strap it around your waist so you do not have to hunt for tools as they will be there for you.

I've successfully ran wires and hooked up receptacles / light switches / moved switches and receptacles to different sides of the door way / put up drywall / insulation / etc. Last thing I did, with a little advice, was run some heavier gauge (10/2 I think) to a double pole 30-amp breaker and to a NEMA L6-30-R outlet (like this one: http://www.homedepot.com/p/30-Amp-25...-100117946-_-N ).


That's not a pitiful attempt to brag or anything, that's just me trying to show you guys where my knowledge level is, so you can get a better idea of how much help I'd need with something like replacing the panel. The reason I needed help was because I wasn't sure about codes and wanted to do it proper. For example, here, because it was 10/2, I had to wrap the one white hot wire with black electrical tape where it was going into the one breaker so the next person working on it would know that it was hot (although, by seeing it go into the breaker, I'd think they'd be able to tell that, so not really sure why we have that code, but eh). I didn't know I can to use special wire because it was in a crawl space but I used the right type of wire and because I wasn't drilling through the joists, I learned I had to staple the wire. I struggle with the code stuff a bit. If I had a chance to do it again, I'd of ran 10/3 instead of 10/2.

One question I got...I know backstabbing is bad but a lot of outlets I look at now, they got a plate by the screw where the wires hook up and they're designed for you to loosen the screw and slide the bare wire, unbent, behind the plate and tighten the screw back down. Is that not a good idea? Should I always bend the wire and wrap it around the screw before tightening the screw?

[stj]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

twist-nut?
damn your "safety standards" are low!
if i ever caught someone using those i would hurt them!

[keeney123]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

You will need staples for securing the romex to wood. The best staples, if you can get them, have plastic on them where they come in contact with the romex sheathing. When you hammer the staples the idea is to not pinch the wire, but to make it so the romex sheathing can not move back and forth under the staple yet not to crush the sheathing. All solid wire needs to be twisted prior to putting a twist nut on. I even twist the stranded wire. I also wrap a piece of electrical tape around the bottom of the twist nut and insulation clockwise direction, same way the twist nut is tightened, of the wire to make sure it stays secure to wire. I like the twist nuts that do not have wings to them as those are less bulky in the box. Also, when you put a wire around a screw you want go in the same direction so the wire twist tighter around the screw instead of going against the grain.

[keeney123]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

I am a big believer in Klein tools. You need "insulated handles" to large linemen pliers/cutters for twisting solid wire and cutting wire, strippers that have the exact gauge holes in the front part of the tool, long nose pliers for turning wire in a shape to go around the screws, screwdrivers and large diagonal cutters for cutting the sheathing of the romex off. The diagonal cutters are useful after one strips the romex with the box cutter. You can reach in the receptacle box and cut the sheathing as far back as you can to allow maximum room in the box. It would also be useful to have a box knife for cutting down the middle of the romex to strip the sheathing. One has to be very careful with the box cutter so as not to cut through the insulation on the line or neutral wires. The middle wire usually is a ground wire. A light pressure on the romex sheathing will mark the sheathing with out completely cutting through. The very end of the wire one can cut through so you can grab the sheathing pulling it to strip in off of the wires.
Also, it would be useful to learn how to do this for any future project you may have.
Lastly a linesmen's tool belt so you can strap it around your waist so you do not have to hunt for tools as they will be there for you.

[budm]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

Tools to cut big gauge wires, snake to pull the new wires if needed, hand tools, etc.
Of you trying to hire someone to observe you doing the work, he will have to basically teach you at the same time if you never done the work before so ask him if he is willing to teach you at the same time because it will take more time when you run into problems.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

What would I need for proper tools? Maybe something that could drill into cement...my father has a drill that can do that. I think I could borrow that. Maybe something to cut giant gauge wire, that would be hard. Maybe where I buy the wire from, they might custom cut it. My dad's got a lot of sockets, ratchets, stuff for drywall, etc. Is there anything in particular you was thinking I might need Budm?

[budm]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

Do not forget about having proper tools also.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

I would still see if I can find a master electrician that may help you. You might find one that is emphatic to your circumstances and will work with you. Otherwise, perhaps Kaboom will help walk you through things and maybe you and him could come to so financial understanding for his assistance. No matter how good or knowledgeable a person is it always is good to have another knowledgeable person looking over one's shoulder. This can eliminate many problems one may be blind to.

Yeah, when it comes to it, if Kaboom is interested, I would be happy to see if we could work out some type of compensation financially. It'd be great if I could do it myself with someone walking me through the tough parts (ie, what size wire to run from the outside panel / meter box, etc). If he's not interested, that is fine too. I can always just try finding someone local. If we get approved for the loan and move in, that'll probably be one of the first few things we do. Right now, August 20th will be the soonest we can move in, but that date can change either way. Just trying to figure out how much cash we're gonna need to do the various things we'd want to do, to make sure it's not going to cost a billion dollars to fix the house up, you know?

[keeney123]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

I would still see if I can find a master electrician that may help you. You might find one that is emphatic to your circumstances and will work with you. Otherwise, perhaps Kaboom will help walk you through things and maybe you and him could come to so financial understanding for his assistance. No matter how good or knowledgeable a person is it always is good to have another knowledgeable person looking over one's shoulder. This can eliminate many problems one may be blind to.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

I guess it would depend on the economy and competition of other master electrician as far as how much they make. Master Electricians can own their own company and they oversee journeymen. This is why I would say they make more than $45 hour. Usually just to drive into ones yard is $90. If they work for themselves they have to afford the expense of a business. I am not sure if you will find one that will work for you in this manner. If they are unionized then I would say they will not. If you can find one that is not part of a union then you might be able to work with him. I do not know the laws in your area of unions. When I work as an electrician helper in Florida there was no union. There was a on job time and a test one had to pass to be a journey man and then an master electrician. The master electrician I worked for learned most of his craft on 125KV High power lines in Alabama.

Wow, that's crazy! So, I think I figured out where I went wrong. When I had read that they make 40$ - 45$ an hour (or whatever it was), I think they meant that's what they get paid when working for a bigger company. I mean, if you think about it, they're probably not working the full 40 hours they work each week and the company probably has to not only pay them for the hours they're not working, but also make a profit off of it, now we're talking some serious cash! If they don't have work for the master electrician to do, they still pay him I bet! I bet if we hired one through a company to upgrade those two boxes, we're probably looking at a lot of money, like a thousand dollars or more! Next time I talk to the B&C Plumbing guys, I'll ask them. They got HVAC guys and all that jazz. They'll be able to give me an estimate I bet.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

That is probably what the electrician himself makes (his wage/salary), but the rate you'll be charged will usually be much higher (likely in the $80-100/hr. range). Remember the company the electrician works for has overhead and wants to make a profit as well (even if he is self employed these still applied, though at a lower amount). Electricians are (and most trades for that matter) also known to charge a higher rate the 1st. hour (since many jobs only take an a hour or a couple hours).

I gotcha and it also seems to probably depend a lot on the area. For example, the average house in our area either lists or sells for around 110,000$ (or somewhere around there) but in our state, we're looking at something like 260,000$! Chances are good the exact same house would go for different amounts depending on the area it's in I guess.

I didn't think about the master electrician working for a company. For some reason, I was visioning all master electricians just owning their own company and just traveling around, fixing stuff, like that one Kung Fu guy that used to travel around fixing problems. I think the TV show was called Kung Fu and it was from the 70's and 80's or something. I bet that hiring a company to do work like that where they have to pay a master electrician to come and do the work, they're gonna charge a fortune!

[keeney123]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

Okay, will do! I had googled how much a master electrician gets paid and they said around 40$ to 45$ an hour. You don't think that's right though, huh?

I like your idea best! I didn't know you could do that. I mean if a stranger called me asking how to fix a PC so they didn't have to pay me, I'd probably not be too happy. But if they said hey, I'll throw ya some cash to show me how you'd do it and then have you come check out my work, I'd be all about that!

I guess it would depend on the economy and competition of other master electrician as far as how much they make. Master Electricians can own their own company and they oversee journeymen. This is why I would say they make more than $45 hour. Usually just to drive into ones yard is $90. If they work for themselves they have to afford the expense of a business. I am not sure if you will find one that will work for you in this manner. If they are unionized then I would say they will not. If you can find one that is not part of a union then you might be able to work with him. I do not know the laws in your area of unions. When I work as an electrician helper in Florida there was no union. There was a on job time and a test one had to pass to be a journey man and then an master electrician. The master electrician I worked for learned most of his craft on 125KV High power lines in Alabama.

[dmill89]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

Okay, will do! I had googled how much a master electrician gets paid and they said around 40$ to 45$ an hour. You don't think that's right though, huh?

That is probably what the electrician himself makes (his wage/salary), but the rate you'll be charged will usually be much higher (likely in the $80-100/hr. range). Remember the company the electrician works for has overhead and wants to make a profit as well (even if he is self employed these still applied, though at a lower amount). Electricians are (and most trades for that matter) also known to charge a higher rate the 1st. hour (since many jobs only take an a hour or a couple hours).

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

I would say a master electrician will cost you more than $40/ hr. You might see if a master electrician will oversee your work. Say ask one to come over to see what needs to be done and then do it according to how he would want it done. Then he can come back and check out how you did. This would save you on the labor charge.

Okay, will do! I had googled how much a master electrician gets paid and they said around 40$ to 45$ an hour. You don't think that's right though, huh?

I like your idea best! I didn't know you could do that. I mean if a stranger called me asking how to fix a PC so they didn't have to pay me, I'd probably not be too happy. But if they said hey, I'll throw ya some cash to show me how you'd do it and then have you come check out my work, I'd be all about that!

[keeney123]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

I bet because I was in the Town of Corning, and not the city, maybe our realtor was right, and he just didn't care. I heard their job can be pretty demanding. Maybe if I'm in the city and I call, he'll return my calls? If not, we can just get his cell number from her. Thanks for all the info on this. I wanted an idea of how much work it'd be if I did it myself. It doesn't seem like it'd be crazy hard or anything like that. Just a lot of paperwork type stuff. Getting permits, calling the city, having them turn off the juice, trying to hook everything up myself, calling the code enforcer to see if I messed anything up, having the city turn it back on, and I'll be all good.

I wonder how much money we're talking. I want to say I think each box had what? 8 breakers? So, we can maybe assume 20 breakers...we can figure 200$ for the panel....just gotta figure out what breakers I'd want to use, then we can figure out how much that'd cost. Then the outside panel, the wire connecting the two....I wonder if it's worth doing it myself or just paying some master electrician to come in. Someone said 40$ an hour or so for a master electrician. If we're talking 2 hours worth of work, that's 80$ in labor? To me, 80$ to have someone install it, plus the parts, that wouldn't be bad.

I would say a master electrician will cost you more than $40/ hr. You might see if a master electrician will oversee your work. Say ask one to come over to see what needs to be done and then do it according to how he would want it done. Then he can come back and check out how you did. This would save you on the labor charge.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

I would wonder how good of an electrical inspector he is if he does not a least try to get back to you?

Kaboom when I was talking about pulling the meter I meant to call the city and have them come up to pull the meter.

If you have a 200 amp main and it was installed correctly then you will be fine. The cross sectional area of the wire and type of wire determine the current capability for a given length. This can be look up. I do not know what rules apply in Corning, but 45 years ago when I work as an electrician's helper in Florida one had to pay for the city to change the wire from the pole/transformer to the meter at the same time they would pull the meter for you so an electrician could replace the wire from the meter to the panel. After the electrician replaced the wire to the panel the owner could call up the city to come out and replace the meter. This could be all done in 2 hours time as not to inconvenience the home owner.
One other thing if we found that the sub panel ground was not connected to the main panel then we would connect a ground wire between the two.

I bet because I was in the Town of Corning, and not the city, maybe our realtor was right, and he just didn't care. I heard their job can be pretty demanding. Maybe if I'm in the city and I call, he'll return my calls? If not, we can just get his cell number from her. Thanks for all the info on this. I wanted an idea of how much work it'd be if I did it myself. It doesn't seem like it'd be crazy hard or anything like that. Just a lot of paperwork type stuff. Getting permits, calling the city, having them turn off the juice, trying to hook everything up myself, calling the code enforcer to see if I messed anything up, having the city turn it back on, and I'll be all good.

I wonder how much money we're talking. I want to say I think each box had what? 8 breakers? So, we can maybe assume 20 breakers...we can figure 200$ for the panel....just gotta figure out what breakers I'd want to use, then we can figure out how much that'd cost. Then the outside panel, the wire connecting the two....I wonder if it's worth doing it myself or just paying some master electrician to come in. Someone said 40$ an hour or so for a master electrician. If we're talking 2 hours worth of work, that's 80$ in labor? To me, 80$ to have someone install it, plus the parts, that wouldn't be bad.