Replacing BGA components with hot air.

[nojgib]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

Although I would probably start fixing PS3s, I have some broken boards here that I was going to use as experiments.

I was hoping I could build one myself but if I can't find any good how-to's (I lack the knowledge to fully design one from scratch), I will end up saving up the money and purchase one. Out of curiosity, which unit did you go for?!

I opted for the ACHI IR PRO SC and have no regrets.

Also, thanks for letting me know about the replacement chip would come pre-balled. Do most BGA chips come pre-balled? I'm going to take a guess that most 360's and maybe even some PS3s probably don't actually need the BGA chip replaced, just reballed. What was your experience there?

I would say anything you are going to swap is easy to find preballed (and anything sold as new is balled). The majority of the systems I have encountered only needed reballed, though recently I have been coming across more failed ICs. I'm not certain if it is simply these are getting to the age they are failing or too many systems have had attempted repairs with a heatgun or baking in the oven. There are some laptops I will always replace the GPU rather than reball, and any MacBook I get will always get a replacement. What I look for is posted in the attachment. Most say there is a micro fracture in the solder joint, but I have had plenty of success pulling chips until I find the one (or more) with the balls never properly adhering to the pads

Most of the stuff I would work on would more than likely be laptop motherboards and occasionally, a video game console. With the advent of the PS4 / xBox One, I'm guessing there probably isn't such a high demand for PS3 / 360 work now. You said you saved the money up and bought a unit to fix them. Have you noticed the demand to have them fixed has dropped? I know you said fixing them doesn't bring as much money as it used too...just curious if that's because you just don't see a lot of them anymore. Thanks!

Demand for 360 and PS3 have definitely dropped, and to make a reball worth my time I have to charge more than an Xbox is worth so I don't get many of them. A slim now and then. I still get some PS3s, mostly the backward compatible models with the occasional slim model.
Rework repairs are not limited to Xbox/PS3/laptops. I have had Nintendo DSs, Wiis, TV boards, phones and iPads, even a digital camera come in with BGA or IC problems.
Laptops with BGA problems are fairly common anymore. I think the biggest problem there is most want to throw away their 2 year old laptop and purchase new (other than the Apple products which are much more cost effective to repair). When someone doesn't want to put the money into something I simply offer to waive my diagnostic fee in exchange for keeping their system and I would either use it for parts, or fix and resell it.
When I purchased my ACHI, I ran ads on CL and purchased any broken Xbox and PS3 within a 2 hour radius of me for a few months. I damaged a few until I learned the process, so it's a good thing to have a few practice boards.
Best of luck with whatever path you choose.

[stj]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

That's cool. Is it something like this?

https://www.ironwoodelectronics.com/...8c_highres.jpg

It says it's a Stamped Spring Pin BGA Socket for Altera 672FBGA

But the price for one is 1264$!!!! That's insane!

well the base looks similar - i need to take some foto's later.
but that has a top frame etc.

and as you may know the test socket industry has a HUGE markup.

examples.
a 16pin soic test adapter from a dealer costs about 80Euro
i got one from china for £4
spot the difference!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300407604429
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252106127623

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

OP: If you are only wanting to repair 1 PS3 your best option would be to send it out to someone who can repair it safely. If you are looking to get into reballing I would suggest buying the proper rework equipment. It is expensive to get into, but the equipment will definitely pay for itself over time. The more you can reball the faster it will be worth while.
I invested over 2K years ago and had made that back within a few months (although that was back in the day PS3s brought more....) and that was only working PS3s and 360s.
Pulling a RSX without the proper equipment isn't impossible, but the chances of a failed attempt and damaging components are greatly increased. BTW, the replacement chip would probably come preballed should you decide to go that route.

Although I would probably start fixing PS3s, I have some broken boards here that I was going to use as experiments.

I was hoping I could build one myself but if I can't find any good how-to's (I lack the knowledge to fully design one from scratch), I will end up saving up the money and purchase one. Out of curiosity, which unit did you go for?

Also, thanks for letting me know about the replacement chip would come pre-balled. Do most BGA chips come pre-balled? I'm going to take a guess that most 360's and maybe even some PS3s probably don't actually need the BGA chip replaced, just reballed. What was your experience there?

Most of the stuff I would work on would more than likely be laptop motherboards and occasionally, a video game console. With the advent of the PS4 / xBox One, I'm guessing there probably isn't such a high demand for PS3 / 360 work now. You said you saved the money up and bought a unit to fix them. Have you noticed the demand to have them fixed has dropped? I know you said fixing them doesn't bring as much money as it used too...just curious if that's because you just don't see a lot of them anymore. Thanks!

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

the pitch on those is pretty big,
i'm talking about vertical coilsprings anyway.

That's cool. Is it something like this?

https://www.ironwoodelectronics.com/...8c_highres.jpg

It says it's a Stamped Spring Pin BGA Socket for Altera 672FBGA

But the price for one is 1264$!!!! That's insane!

[stj]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

it's not soldered, it's loose.
it fits like a washer between the chip and board.

[keeney123]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

i have some BGA "sockets" and they are fucking expensive - been around for years.

they are plastic frames filled wih tiny gold springs that sit between the chip and pcb.
you need an outer frame fixed to the board to clamp it all down.
they used to be used on SGI workstation cpu's

So are they expensive for any other reason than they just like to charge what ever they can get paid. I also think they could improve how they are mounted and make the pins independent so they could be soldered separately The whole socket soldering could be done at the manufacturer with the special expensive equipment, then if the material was not plastic, but a material that could withstand the heat of a soldering iron and the mounting was made to allow one to solder one pin by applying the heat of a iron that would transmit down the pin to the board where the solder failed and allow it to re-flow on that one pin this would be easier for the field and reduce cost of failures within the first three years. After that the produce and design would be proving.

[nojgib]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

OP: If you are only wanting to repair 1 PS3 your best option would be to send it out to someone who can repair it safely. If you are looking to get into reballing I would suggest buying the proper rework equipment. It is expensive to get into, but the equipment will definitely pay for itself over time. The more you can reball the faster it will be worth while.
I invested over 2K years ago and had made that back within a few months (although that was back in the day PS3s brought more....) and that was only working PS3s and 360s.
Pulling a RSX without the proper equipment isn't impossible, but the chances of a failed attempt and damaging components are greatly increased. BTW, the replacement chip would probably come preballed should you decide to go that route.

[stj]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

the pitch on those is pretty big,
i'm talking about vertical coilsprings anyway.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

i have some BGA "sockets" and they are fucking expensive - been around for years.

they are plastic frames filled wih tiny gold springs that sit between the chip and pcb.
you need an outer frame fixed to the board to clamp it all down.
they used to be used on SGI workstation cpu's

Wouldn't my socket 775 be considered a BGA "socket"? The socket 775 CPUs don't have pins, they have bads. The sockets are soldered to the board and have springs. If those little springs get bent, they can be a real pain to unbend. If they get broken, you need a BGA rework machine to replace them. If you're careful though, you don't really need to worry about replacing them though.

[stj]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

i have some BGA "sockets" and they are fucking expensive - been around for years.

they are plastic frames filled wih tiny gold springs that sit between the chip and pcb.
you need an outer frame fixed to the board to clamp it all down.
they used to be used on SGI workstation cpu's

[keeney123]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

Would be nice if the manufacturers would put a BGA socket in so replacement would be a lot easier. It would cost a few cents more, but it would really be worth it until their boards have been proven. Meaning that the design and the manufacturing processes of the boards have less then a 1 % fall out over say a three year period. If they decided to go with a different manufacturer then the socket would go back into place. So a test component could easily be inserted to test the continuity of the contact points to the board. Perhaps by putting a signal on each point and measuring how long it takes to bounce back. Also, if one could heat the socket bad pin separately so the solder would re-flow. The socket material would have to be made out of a material what would allow that type of heat for a short time.

[newtothis]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

Some info I am seeing which isn't right in here :

Non leaded solder will melt at ~217c not 230 - 240c < Quite frankly that would most likely tear the BGA pads off the board on the lift.

Leaded solder will melt at ~183 - 188c

Profiling is really important as stated... Do things wrong and you can easily lift pads, popcorn the BGA device, Warp the board or simply kill the device.

You need enough power to equally heat the entire board evenly within a specified time... Just the same as being able to get the device to the correct temps in the right amount of time.

There is a lot going on and a lot to learn when doing this kind of work... I killed many devices and boards learning and figuring profiles. Where one profile may work for one board it will not work for another... Just as one profile may work for a PS3 for one person it will not work for another using the same machine in a different climate. Ambient temps and even humidity all play a big role in getting profiles right.

Simply put BGA rework is not something that you can just jump into and expect to get right quickly.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

Did you see this yesterday Spork ? http://hackaday.com/2016/04/05/ir-rework-station/

That is cool, thank you Diif! I wanted to avoid the Arduino if I could and just design my own hardware, but hell, if it gets the job done, until I get something better, I think that'll work. Maybe instead of the halogen bulbs, I can use some of those IR heating elements or whatever they are. They're rectangle in shape.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

I see guys on youtube doing it with a hot airgun, and tapping it in place with tweezers, which is crude, but they did it! It would be too hard for me to hold the chip still for BGA!

I replace eeprom chips and gamma chips with a hot air gun, and those are difficult as it is, but I have become good at replacing them, but BGA replacement is not something I have tackled yet!

I'm not sure what a gamma chip is. But for BGA components, I believe with profiles, it won't hold. A profile works like this. Let's say we have a BGA chip and we're all ready to plop it in and have it soldered to the board. We prep the board, remove the old solder, get the balls setup properly, etc. We put the chip on. Instead of just putting heat on it until the balls melt, we need to put heat on it just right. It might be something like:
pre-heater the board to 300F. Increase the temp on the BGA to 500F at a ramp speed of 1-2 degrees F per second. Once it reaches 500F, hold it there for 2 minutes. Then, ramp up the temp to 650F. Hold it there for 30 seconds. Then, take it down to 400F for 2 minutes, 300F for 30 seconds, etc.

[diif]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

Did you see this yesterday Spork ? http://hackaday.com/2016/04/05/ir-rework-station/

[ZnsaneRyder]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

I see guys on youtube doing it with a hot airgun, and tapping it in place with tweezers, which is crude, but they did it! It would be too hard for me to hold the chip still for BGA!

I replace eeprom chips and gamma chips with a hot air gun, and those are difficult as it is, but I have become good at replacing them, but BGA replacement is not something I have tackled yet!

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

Yeah. Here, we have 120v from the AC outlets. So 16.66667 amps. We can say 17 amps, plus the 650 watt hot air ~ 5 amps. So now we're at 22 amp. My brain was broke yesterday so I didn't think about just calculating it. With a 20 amp breaker, I think it'll trip. Also, there's more than just the device that will be running off that. Lights, maybe a PC, etc. I could turn off all the devices to not trip a breaker.

I noticed there was a 30 amp and some double 50 amp breakers in the breaker box. 30 amp requires at least 10 gauge (it's copper). 20 amp breakers, from what I was reading, requires at least 12 gauge. It'd be nice if there was 10 gauge in there. Then I could just replace the breaker with a 30 amp and we'd be all set.

I could also probably go with a lesser wattage preheater.

[stj]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

i didnt say that, but isnt 2kw at 110v 16Amps?

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

energy is energy,
you will need to run a wire either way because if you want 110v your gonna be pulling serious amps.

So there's no way to get 2,000 watt with 110v? I'm going to have to tear down sheet rock and run directly from the box? That really sucks. We're not going to be here much longer either. We have a baby coming and my wife is working on becoming store manager at her work. That involves going through every mangers position first though. Only one left after this one is Assistant Store Manager. The only stores in the chain that have that position are stores that make 1.6 million in sales a year or more. Her store doesn't. They said only stores in bigger cities make that kind of cash. She said she's gonna wait until the babies born and then we're going to have to relocate to a <gulp> big city.

[stj]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

energy is energy,
you will need to run a wire either way because if you want 110v your gonna be pulling serious amps.