Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

[NxB]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

I did find the GUI a little awkward. Especially positioning of windows inside the program vs the background.

[washu]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

I'm putting this here instead of messing up the Ubuntu thread

Kari: The OS level DRM in OSX is much stronger than in Windows. In OSX several key system binaries are encrypted to prevent them from running on unauthorized hardware. That's far more heavy handed then anything MS does. The decryption key is stored in an obfuscated way in the SMC chip on Apple motherboards. OSX does have an "activation key", it's just in the hardware. Both OSes have of course been cracked, but OSX is much harder to do because of the much stronger DRM.

Put it this way:

- MS will give you an activation key if you pay them for a license. They don't care what you run the OS on after that.

- Apple hides their activation key and will not give it to anyone, money or not. They put DRM in their OS specifically to control what hardware it will run on.

Apple is way more evil then MS in OS DRM.

[ratdude747]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

no to mention that itunes= bloated app +drm'd files.

[NxB]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

It does run a little better on mac, just like quicktime.

[KeriJane]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

Kari: The OS level DRM in OSX is much stronger than in Windows. In OSX several key system binaries are encrypted to prevent them from running on unauthorized hardware. That's far more heavy handed then anything MS does. The decryption key is stored in an obfuscated way in the SMC chip on Apple motherboards. OSX does have an "activation key", it's just in the hardware. Both OSes have of course been cracked, but OSX is much harder to do because of the much stronger DRM.

Put it this way:

- MS will give you an activation key if you pay them for a license. They don't care what you run the OS on after that.

- Apple hides their activation key and will not give it to anyone, money or not. They put DRM in their OS specifically to control what hardware it will run on.

Apple is way more evil then MS in OS DRM.

Hi Washu

But that's not my point. I do not intend to do anything illegal here.
I am not at all interested in running OSX on anything but Apple hardware.
I don't mind at all if the Software checks what Hardware it is installed on.

My point is this:
Apple sells Keri ONE Snow Leopard Box Set with iLife, iWork and Snow Leopard licensed for use on ONE Computer.
None of the three install DVDs have or require ANY sort of Serial Number to install.
Apple has no way of knowing how many Apple computers Keri installs this software on. (unless you are implying that the pressed DVDs have a hidden serial number)
Conclusion: Apple is less paranoid about software theft than Microsoft.

I interpret the effort undertaken by Apple to be a protective measure, mostly to insure that the software can only be installed on a machine that can run it properly (so as to provide a good experience for the customer) and meets the license requirements in order to make the Legal department happy.
Not to mention they would like to reduce support costs associated with Hackintoshes.... who pays for the updates Hackintoshes get for free? Apple. Who gets inane phone calls from people that were sold a Hacintosh? Apple.

On the other side of the fence:

Microsoft sell Keri ONE License to install ONE copy of Vista Home Premium on ONE computer.
Microsoft requires BOTH a Serial Number (CD Key) AND a "Phone Home" Activation that effectively MARRIES this ONE Serial Number to ONE specific computer based upon a "Hardware Hash" Identifier Code.
Conclusion: Microsoft is VERY concerned that Keri will install this software on multiple computers. This becomes a problem if the Hardware Hash changes frequently. MS will assume that Keri is stealing Windows.

Keri has no interest in stealing Windows, or else she would be circumventing the Activation and avoiding all the hassle.

MS has a system that punishes honest customers without affecting Pirates much at all.

Keri got tired of being treated like a Thief by her computer.

Have Fun,
Keri

[acstech]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

1. The Vista beta I had years ago did delete MP3 files that were on my computer. The second you touch them (try to move them) they would disappear. This was most likely a beta problem unless you're a conspiracy nut.

2. The computer I'm running MSI Wind triple boots. XP, OS-X, and Fedora. I'm typing this post up in OS-X.

3. In the back room I'm working on my second XP box of the week for a customer that had Windows Police Pro. The first one required reinstallation due to damage caused by several other viruses. I think one of them left the door open (took down the firewall). This one, I removed WPP, and "Total Security" came up! ARRGH!!! OS-X and Linux are not affected by that sh*t, which is a big plus for users. I do make money cleaning it off though.

4. Most anything I need to watch can be watched through Mplayer or Gnome-mplayer. I have yet to find an instance where I needed to use Photoshop for photo editing. Ever. Heck, I even use Kompozer for websites, although I will admit that is somewhat buggy. Openoffice works great for me. In fact, I've been using Linux for my primary desktop PC for about 5 years. Windows is there for virus scanning and games. That's it.

5. OS-X runs fine on my netbook. So much for not being able to run it on non-apple hardware. I don't call up tech support for a hackintosh, that'd be dumb.

Windows is ok for the average user on this board. But for the non-computer-oriented user, like most of my customers, it's less than ideal, even a bad choice. They'll always find a way to get themselves into trouble. Now, they could throw money at the problem going to Apple. Or, go to Linux. For 90% of my customers it would do everything they ever wanted to do, do it well, and do it in relative safety. No more would they call me because Antivirus 200x or Windows Police Pro or Total Security or whatever other sh*t installed itself on their computer, took down their firewall, and let in hordes of other sh*t. That's my main beef with Windows. It's kind of like a good looking hooker. Costs a lot, but you don't know if you'll get infected.

My ranking for desktop users:

1. Linux
2. OS-X
3. Windows

[NxB]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

Windows Police Pro

I haven't seen that one yet. I love it; the windows police will get you.

a "Phone Home" Activation that effectively MARRIES this ONE Serial Number to ONE specific computer based upon a "Hardware Hash" Identifier Code.

Not really. If you activate over the phone, you can put it on a few computers without them knowing. Don't install the crappy WGA checkup update which phones home and you are fine. If you don't agree to its terms it won't push it again (on legit[ish] keys). If you get another computer, you can use the same copy of XP you bought again.

Microsoft did ALL of this because of MASS piracy on the commercial level. They did it like Microsoft does anything.

I interpret the effort undertaken by Apple to be a protective measure, mostly to insure that the software can only be installed on a machine that can run it properly (so as to provide a good experience for the customer) and meets the license requirements in order to make the Legal department happy.

Oh come on, thats an awfully rosy interpretation of it. They don't have giant serials because they lose so little when someone pirates osx. What would they put it on, another mac? If they are smart enough to run it on non apple hardware a serial won't help. Apple is just using common sense to protect their ip.

When the economy gets worse and the sales dwindle, I bet apple will release OSX for generic PC hardware. Its inevitable just like the intel switch. Mac using friends talked so much shit and then it happened and they felt salty.

[kikkoman]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

i can only think of exactly ONE thing that makes Apple's legal department happy.

[acstech]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

If Apple did it right, I predict if they did release a generic PC version of OS-X their market share on desktop computers would challenge Microsoft's within a year.

The argument against that will be:

"But then they'd have to support all that extra hardware!"

Well, no, they wouldn't. All they'd have to do is put up a HCL (hardware compatibility list). This is commonplace in the Linux world. Then, make it so it's installable and upgradable on a standard PC without any workarounds or other BS involved. Stipulate that PC installs are legal, but no support will be provided from Apple. Plus, you'd have much increased user interest, and community developed drivers for a lot of things, possibly component manufacturer drivers.

People buy hardware to conform to the HCL, buy OS-X, and run it. Apple would win through a tremendously increased user base (not requiring support), and increased software sales.

Of course, then we'd see Mac viruses.

Edit: Even if they made the OS free, they'd still make money on additional software and accessories.

[NxB]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

Its gonna happen... the clock is ticking.

[Junk Parts]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

Back to Windows phone home BS. I run the same OEM copy of Windows Xp Home Premium from a Dell 4550 on three Different Series Dell Computers here. The units in question are as follows: Dell Optiplex GX180, Dell Dimension 4550, Dell Latitude C640 Laptop. I use the online activation on all of them, and have never had a problem from Microsoft on this issue ever. On all three units the automatic updates are turned on. Is there some reason that Microsoft can't see that I am using the same OEM copy on these units? When I install this OEM Xp on my Dell PC's it never asks for a serial number. Now I have put it on maybe two non-Dells and it did ask for the COA that is on the CD case. Here again it came up legal and got all its updates with no problems.

[KeriJane]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

JP!

Don't you know about System Locked Pre-Activtion? (SLP)

The OEM manufacturers such as HP, Dell, etc. would not stand for the "phone Home" Activation, so MS developed SLP so their customers wouldn't have to put up with that nonsense.

It is a special version used on original restore disks only. The SLP merely checks for a text string in a certain place of the BIOS whenever Windows starts. It also uses a pre-entered generic Serial number, common to millions of systems.

It is pretty easy to mod BIOS on a generic board so as to use SLP'd disks and avoid the phone home crap.

The "phone home" activation is used on Retail boxed Windows or OEM licensed media.
Which are the only types legal to use on a custom built PC. Especially one used for commercial purposes.

Since I intend to make money with my computer, keeping things legal is Important.


Yes, I know SLP is kinda like how Apple locks OSX to Apple computers.
But I like OSX and my Mac so I'm OK with that.

Have Fun,
Keri

[washu]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

Kari: You don't get it. No one is talking about pirating either OS. Both OSX and Windows are licensed on a per computer basis (ignoring VLKs and the like for now). Installing OSX on multiple computers is breaking the license just the same as Windows even if there is no key or activation.

The difference is, MS does not prevent you from running it on your computer of your choice. You can run Windows on any computer that has the hardware to do so. MS only cares that you pay for it which is what activation enforces. If you want to run it on more computers from various vendors (even Apple) MS is cool with that as long as they get their money.

OSX cannot be run on your choice of computers. It only runs on Apple hardware and uses DRM to enforce it.

The restrictions Apple places on their OS are much greater than what MS places on theirs. Your statement about software theft is BS. Apple is extremely paranoid about hackintoshes or they wouldn't have put the DRM in OSX.

YOU might not want to run OSX on anything but a Mac, but lots of people DO want to run it on generic hardware. And they are willing to pay a reasonable price for it. However, Apple will not take our money. Apple doesn't give us that option.

I have a box that is part for part identical to a first gen Intel mini. OSX requires no additional drivers at all to run on it. Makes a great hackintosh. It would cost Apple nothing to sell me a license other than removing the DRM. They won't do it.

[washu]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

JP!
Yes, I know SLP is kinda like how Apple locks OSX to Apple computers.
But I like OSX and my Mac so I'm OK with that.

SLP and Apple's SMC chip serve a similar purpose, but they are not the same.

As you said yourself, the SLP is easy to copy. It's DRM, but very weak DRM.

Apple's SMC contains decryption keys for parts of OSX. The DRM is much stronger.

The other difference is that if you want to stay legal with MS you don't need an SLP, you just need an OEM or retail OS. Costs more, but at least you have the option. Where's the "retail" version of OSX that doesn't need the SMC? You don't have that option with OSX.

[370forlife]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

The real reason why microsoft is so much more stringent on security is that windows is about 99.99% of their income.

Apple not only sells their OS, but also their computers too (a bit pricey, I may add..,) along with being compatible with only certain hardware (which I think is just as dick of a move as what microsoft does,) and the smaller user base makes it less of a target of pirating.

Now, imagine if you owned a bakery. You make really good cookies that the majority of the population likes. You are selling a lot and making a lot of money. Now some people sneak in and steal your cookies you worked hard to make. What will you do? Let people steal your cookies or buy 1 cookie and eat it and continually regurgitate it and eat it again? Or try and stop the people who are stealing your cookies. Hmmm....

[KeriJane]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

Hi Washu!

And you apparently didn't understand what I was trying to say.

Apple IS trying to keep people from installing OSX on non-Apple hardware.
They have their reasons for that, probably number One is they do not wish to lose Mac sales. They may also have some obligations to MS left over from when MS bailed them out a few years back.

I'm OK with that, though you apparently are not.

Please remember that Apple is a HARDWARE company. That's where most of their profit is made.

They sell computers the way they were sold before Microsoft:
With the software included at little extra cost.

MS changed the way computers were sold with hardware becoming a cheap commodity and software being where all the big money is.

Problem is, software is easy to copy. Their millions of dollars in R&D can easily be copied for pennies.

Hardware is less easy to copy. Yes, I know you can but you have to pay something for the component parts. Add a few things like the TPM and EFI and it becomes more difficult for non-manufacturers.

I may strongly disagree with your assertions but I don't call them BS....


Have Fun,
Keri

[acstech]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

Yes, Apple is a hardware company. They do make money there. Anyone who has seen their prices know the kinds of profit they make there.

But I don't think it would be a problem if they released PC compatible OS-X. You've basically already proven that most devoted Mac fans will stick with Apple hardware. It's not like Apple would lose anything. They would only have money to gain from the rest of the world that likes the OS but doesn't want to pay the money for the branded hardware. Sure, maybe a few Apple fans will defect and buy PC hardware to run OS-X. But how many PC users would sit up and say "Hey, maybe there's something to this Apple thing after all," and proceed to buy the Apple hardware? My guess is that Apple would end up selling more hardware with a PC compatible OS-X.

Just the way I see it.

[washu]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

Hi Washu!
Please remember that Apple is a HARDWARE company. That's where most of their profit is made.

Kari: I'm well aware that Apple is a hardware company. I don't dispute that. If Apple wants to use DRM to lock down their OS so be it, it's their right.

What I dispute is you saying they are better then MS in this regard. They are not. Regardless of their reasons, Apple has much stronger and more restrictive DRM then MS.

Another counter point to your claim that Apple doesn't care about software theft: Before the Intel switch OSX didn't not have the encryption level DRM. None of the PPCs Macs have decryption keys because they don't need them. It was only once OSX could run on commodity x86 hardware that Apple added DRM to their OS. They were scared shitless about software piracy once their hardware was nothing special. If they didn't care they wouldn't have added the DRM, it would have been less work to do nothing.

They sell computers the way they were sold before Microsoft:
With the software included at little extra cost.

So Apple is trying to stick with an old and dying business model. Good for them. Having a common OS and software that runs on commodity (and therefore cheap) hardware was the best thing that ever happened to the computer industry. It kinda sucks that it was MS who did it, but someone had to. If it wasn't for MS and the cheap x86 boxes a Mini would cost thousands instead of hundreds and your pro would cost more than some cars. If you don't like MS then you have Linux for your commodity hardware.

[Junk Parts]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

You guys debate quite well. To me any OS is like a book at the library. If you "check it out" and like it enough chances are that you will buy a copy of your own. With anything Xp and above you almost have to do this anyway. I'm not a "Pirate" and I have no idea how Xp is cracked so to speak. As a rule I don't even work on PC's that have a cracked OS installed unless its to install a valid OS of some sort. Since I run the same OS install disk on three different Dell's what makes me different than a software pirate? Well here is the difference. I have three units that shipped from Dell with Xp Home Pre-Installed on them. I only have one Xp Home CD from Dell. This CD is completely unaltered. The dues to Microsoft for the use of Xp were paid when these PC's were new so Bill did get a little gingle in his pocket from them already. I don't feel like I doing anything wrong here because of this fact. Now if OSX would load on my non-apples I'd try it too. If I liked it, and it was for sale to us non-apple users I'd buy a copy of that too. The funny part of all of this is that I do own a valid Xp Pro Corp VLK sp1 disk. It was given to me brand new still in its shrink wrapper from my brother for Christmas some years ago. I've used it on my old PC's and it worked perfectly everytime. When I got the first Dell it refused to install on it. It will start the install then just hang. As it turns out it does the same crap on every Dell that I have tried it on but yet it still works fine on any other non-Dell PC.

[KeriJane]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

Hi Washu

OK, how about a lot less ANNOYING than MS?

You may call MS's scheme and software "better" but I don't.

Ask a Windows user how "great" Windows (especially Vista) is. Especially if they've run afoul of Activation.

Then ask a Mac user how "great" OSX is. Just use "awful, rotten Leopard" for an example.

Odds are a higher percentage of OSX users like their OS better.

That's why Apple is still #1 in satisfaction for now.
Because OSX is LESS ANNOYING than Windows.

NOT because we've all drank the Kool-Aid!

Here's a funny Mac-Hater story for you:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ft-mac-windows


You should know by now that you're not getting anywhere with me...
Keri