Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

[KeriJane]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

Sony-

Vaio and all, sony shit breaks and breaks badly. I hate sony. The only good thing they do is write info on the PCBs. I would never buy a sony product if I could help it. Worse overpriced junk than apple.

I had the great misfortune to have a friend that bought the above-mentioned VAIO. They hated it from day one and could I please have a look at it?

1- Really, really LOUD. Like it was trying to take off.
2- Really, really SLOW. Kinda like Vista, but this was MCE2005.

The "Really Loud" was simple, but a little involved. Sony had crammed a 540 CPU with a tiny heatsink into a poorly ventilated MATX case along with an unfanned Radeon x300SE (Hypermemory), a tuner card and 2 optical drives with ribbon cable.
Installing an Arctic Cooler Freezer 7 on the CPU helped. Still the 295w PSU would heat up and howl after a bit, so a better-breathing Seasonic S12-380 ran cooler with improved system airflow. Much quieter. Nearly silent, actually. Only a little louder under load.

The "Really Slow" wasn't as easy. Turning of piles of Bloatware helped a little. Upgrading from 256 to 512mb RAM helped more. But the kicker was that x300SE vidcard. Onboard Graphics probably would have been better but it was disabled and capped by Sony. Obtaining an x300 with onboard memory made a big difference.

So after spending $1200 for the VAIO, they had to spend a few hundred more dollars to make it workable. Total was over $1500, not including the monitor. Or AV. Or Office. Ugh.
Still, it did have a decent Intel branded motherboard and a stylish case.
They would have been far better off with a G5 iMac. Bad Nichicon caps and all. By that, I mean they would have liked it better.


Still gonna stick with Mac for now,
Keri


PS. Yes, I did offer to build them a system BEFORE they went out and bought that turkey. They didn't seem to think that little old me could build one better than the great Sony.

PPS. Maybe we should have a special thread just for people to express their contempt for Apple products. Oh wait, they're using this one for that! (ducks)

[i4004]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

keri, you said it well: you're not apple fanboy.

but you surely are mac fangirl.
<wink>


>The "Really Slow" wasn't as easy. Turning of piles of Bloatware helped a little. Upgrading from 256 to 512mb RAM helped more. But the kicker was that x300SE vidcard. Onboard Graphics probably would have been better but it was disabled and capped by Sony. Obtaining an x300 with onboard memory made a big difference.

slow with games?
as it's only games that video card can help with....

[washu]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

2- Really, really SLOW. Kinda like Vista, but this was MCE2005.

The CPU was probably throttling itself due to overheating if the heatsink was as bad as you say. P4s will take a lot of abuse before dieing, but they slow down first.

Onboard Graphics probably would have been better but it was disabled and capped by Sony.

This is probably not Sony's fault. Lots of Intel chip sets have both integrated video and no video versions. Sony probably used the no video version of the 915 in that model.

Your friend got burned, but your Sony story is exactly why you should NOT go Apple. If this had been a Mac with problems (and yes, Macs DO have problems) you would be stuck. With the Sony the machine sucked but was fixable. How do you fix a crappy video card in anything but the most expensive Macs? Buy a new one. How do you fix an overheating CPU (first gen Macbooks Pros) in a Mac? Buy a new one.

You friend now will rightfully never by a Sony computer again. They can go get a Dell/HP/whitebox/etc and keep going the same as before. Any software they invested in is still good on a new machine. They could even go Linux and have a good chance of their apps working in WINE.

When you get burned by Apple you are stuck. If you decide to jump ship any investment you made is lost. You can't even emulate, Apple doesn't allow that. I'll take MS's relatively weak OS lock-in over Apple's strong OS AND hardware lock-in any day. Apple is just as evil as MS, probably more so. They just aren't as good at it.

[KeriJane]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

Ok, what about developers or support people who need to help users with older OSes? Oops, can't do that either on your new Mac.

We've run into that very problem at work where we could not run 10.4 on a new Mini. Only runs 10.5 or 10.6. 10.4 would be used to help do internet support for user with older Macs. We can't run 10.4 without buying a used machine. Yeah, that's professional </sarcasm>.

Yes, that's right.
The 2nd generation Mac Pro (first 8-core) also wouldn't run Tiger. Thus, there was a mad scramble to buy up first-gen Mac Pros like mine.

Darn! I should have traded up at that point!

This is not a problem for me or for most other users. It can be a problem for some, as you said. Best solution: stick with your old one.

But a "New Mini" that wouldn't run Tiger? But New Tiger-capable Minis are still available!
When the new Mini with nVidia graphics came out, the GMA950 integrated ones went begging. Actually, they are still out there. Everyone wants the nVidia ones.

I bought one cheap (for a backup) that came with Tiger, not Leopard. The Restore Disk is also Tiger. The Minis part number is:MB138LL/A and I bought it just recently, like in July.

Oddly, the Mini is rated for "up to 2GB RAM" but 4GB seems to work fine in both Tiger and Leopard. Since it only came with 1GB and GMA 950, Tiger was a better choice. Leopard does OK with more RAM. Some day I'll see how Snow Leopard like it. I suspect the differences will be more apparent with the low-powered Mini than the very capable Mac Pro.

For web surfing, playing DVDs, burning CDs and just general computing, even the Mini 2.1 does just fine. I really ought to set it up in another room and use it for coming here. Then all you anti-Mac people could try to wreck that one on me.

Have Fun,
Keri

PS. I got a 20" Cinema Display for a song, too. (floor model)

PPS. If ANYONE wants to trade their lousy awful 8-core Mac Pro for my wonderful TIGER-CAPABLE Mac Pro 1.1, just PM me anytime.

PPPS.
Is it me or is Mac/Anti-Mac a girl/boy thing?

[ratdude747]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

yeah, and the softare expenses could have been avoided:

office?- use openoffice.org! works just as well with less bloat and no cost.
av?- comodo free work VERY well. not bloated like avg and a bit paranoid at first, but that just means you are more protected. it has already blown mcaffe out of the water at my house. and its also free

also, free apps exist for these:

winzip- 7zip. just as nice but open source

nero- infra recorder. nowhere near the amount of bloat and open source

there are more- but i dont want to type that much per post.

as for hardware, they could have bought a custom-built one made by you or a computer shop. no caps or crap, oem just means you pay more and get less.

mac is no different. the g5 was CLEARLY slower... if you put linux on that vs linux on the sony, you WOULD see a big speed difference, and the g5 would be panting like a dog in the desert. there is a reason why mac switched to intel... besides the AIM alliance falling apart, the g5 just was not cutting it, so hello intel.

keri, did you actually TRY linux? its easy to test- thats why its a live cd. id recommend ubuntu- it would be the most common and easiest to use of the linuxes, its so easy that people dumbfounded with windows fell in love with ubuntu. its interface is more of a blend of windows and mac, but more towards mac. as for compiz, just ask, i will tell you how to set up the app to mess with it. its easy to use.

[washu]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

This is not a problem for me or for most other users. It can be a problem for some, as you said. Best solution: stick with your old one.

What if your old one breaks?

But a "New Mini" that wouldn't run Tiger? But New Tiger-capable Minis are still available!
When the new Mini with nVidia graphics came out, the GMA950 integrated ones went begging. Actually, they are still out there. Everyone wants the nVidia ones.

What do you mean by still available? I just check the Apple website and all new Mini's are nVidia ones. The GMA ones might have still been available when our mini was bought, but I'm not in purchasing so I don't know.

If you are talking used then no. This mini was purchased for a business (fortune 1000 level). Used is not an option. It would be no more an acceptable solution then making a Hackintosh out of one of the Dells. It speaks strongly to the professionalism of Apple if "buy used" is the best option if you need to run an older OS.

Oddly, the Mini is rated for "up to 2GB RAM" but 4GB seems to work fine in both Tiger and Leopard.

You just destroyed your "why would anyone want to run 64 bit on those" argument. If you want proper support for 4 gigs of RAM you need a full 64 bit OS.

For web surfing, playing DVDs, burning CDs and just general computing, even the Mini 2.1 does just fine. I really ought to set it up in another room and use it for coming here. Then all you anti-Mac people could try to wreck that one on me.

There's nothing wrong with a Mini other than its price.

Is it me or is Mac/Anti-Mac a girl/boy thing?

Not sure. My anecdotes for women who don't like macs: I have a good friend who does a lot of artsy graphic stuff and website design (design, not coding). She wouldn't think of touching a Mac. My highschool art teacher was sold on PCs after seeing a 486 trounce the art lab full of Macs. She lobbied to get more PCs. There are several female techs at work who all think the Mini is a toy and use it only out of necessity to assist their support jobs.

Amusingly, I'm the "Mac guy" at work. Any issue with the Mini or other Macs and I'm the one who fixes them. I grew up with Apple IIs at home and Macs at school. When my family couldn't afford a Mac in the early 90's I was heartbroken to get a 386 for Christmas. Then I used it. It was ugly, but once I learned it I found out what a joke Macs were. Later I did IT support for a bunch of Mac labs and got turned off even more.

[washu]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

Ratdude, you are correct that many software expenses can be avoided. However, unless you pirate everything, most Windows users have at least some purchased software besides the OS itself.

I've read that Mac users generally purchase a larger percentage of their software than Windows users. All that software investment would be lost of the Mac user jumps ship.

[KeriJane]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

Hi RatDude.

Yes, I know. About OpenOffice and custom built PCs. Open Office is what I personally use.

But you can't tell that to a lot of people.

I offered to build them a capable system at the time for about $600 in parts plus XP. It would have easily bested that VAIO.
They wanted a system NOW. I could have had one running in 1 day.

So they went out and spent double, probably figuring 2x money = 2x good.
The "MS Office" it came with was a trial version. Cost them hundreds more to activate.

Yes, I tried to explain about OpenOffice. They didn't want it.
They wanted to know how to steal MS Office.
Yes, I could have done that. But I didn't.
So they paid King William for Office 2003 as well.

Then I had to quiet down and speed up that clunker. Bleah.


Yes, I tried Linux. I very much like the concept, lack of bloat and security it offers.
However, I (unlike you) was too stupid (for lack of a better word) to use it effectively. This bothers me but I can't seem to do anything about it.
I had a month off after a work-related accident and spent the time trying to learn Linux. RedHat, Fedora? Lindows, Suse.... didn't matter. I just can't quite figure out how to compile things, set up the OS, Drivers or Programs.
Using things in KDE was OK. I didn't mess around with Gnome much. Lately I've tried Ubuntu, Kubuntu with somewhat better results, but still not good enough for what I want to do.

So, lacking the talent for Linux, I figured out that Mac OSX also has a UNIX basis.
Now Mac OSX I can deal with. There's no compiling and little setup. You just buy programs and they work. Usually quite a bit better than my Windows ones did. After getting used to it, Leopard seems to suit the way I work better than Windows did. Especially V(bleep!)sta, but when I occasionally drag out the netbook (XP) I don't miss Windows.

On top of that, I like modern Apple Hardware. Laugh if you want to but it's my favorite. You can have your favorite and I'll have mine, OK?

Have fun,
Keri

PS, How good are you at playing Chess? I suspect figuring out Linux, complicated electrical schematics and playing Chess well are related. (I'm bad at Chess too)

[ratdude747]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

i suck at chess.

ih ave never had to compile in ubuntu. most command line things are in a forum somewhere, all you do is highlight-drag into terminal window-hit enter, repeant fornext bunch of commands. really easy. and rarely needed. what in ubuntu did you have to compile?

[KeriJane]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

What do you mean by still available? I just check the Apple website and all new Mini's are nVidia ones. The GMA ones might have still been available when our mini was bought, but I'm not in purchasing so I don't know.


You just destroyed your "why would anyone want to run 64 bit on those" argument. If you want proper support for 4 gigs of RAM you need a full 64 bit OS.


There's nothing wrong with a Mini other than its price.


Not sure. My anecdotes for women who don't like macs: I have a good friend who does a lot of artsy graphic stuff and website design (design, not coding). She wouldn't think of touching a Mac. My highschool art teacher was sold on PCs after seeing a 486 trounce the art lab full of Macs. She lobbied to get more PCs. There are several female techs at work who all think the Mini is a toy and use it only out of necessity to assist their support jobs.

Amusingly, I'm the "Mac guy" at work. Any issue with the Mini or other Macs and I'm the one who fixes them. I grew up with Apple IIs at home and Macs at school. When my family couldn't afford a Mac in the early 90's I was heartbroken to get a 386 for Christmas. Then I used it. It was ugly, but once I learned it I found out what a joke Macs were. Later I did IT support for a bunch of Mac labs and got turned off even more.

Hi Washu.

Well, the Micro Center over here still had them advertised in August. I have no idea how many are left or even how many have Tiger in the box. I know mine did. I suspect the one with a DVD burner and 2GB RAM came with Leopard and the cheapie ones had Tiger. This would make sense as Tiger is less demanding.

I didn't really intend to put 4GB RAM in it. I happened to have it around and it worked. As I understand it, a 32-bit OS is limited to around 3GB even if all 4 are reported. For a Mini, it probably wouldn't matter much either way (2, 3 or 4GB).

Thanks for the insight about women and Macs.
The few people I know that have had a Mac are women and their husbands generally consider the Mac to be a waste of time and money. Kind of like you.

One exception is my friend Sharon. Her (male) boss went all Mac in the office and they both like them. Initially she thought that she wouldn't like Mac. Now she wants one for home.

Another exception is that Rush Limbaugh guy on the radio. The VAIO guy is a Rush nut and I occasionally heard Rush rave about Macs. (before I got involved with Mac)

Have Fun,
Keri

[i4004]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

>Is it me or is Mac/Anti-Mac a girl/boy thing?

now you're talking!
hehe...

i think that most woman would go for mac and say "go on, it looks prettier. don't be stupid to buy that ugly pc box"...hehe...
but still as it's a mostly male toy(pcs overall) apple still doesn't have such sales success.
but, then again, not all woman are wealthy enough to buy mac, so many would still buy pc...better to say they would find other priorities to spend money on...i bet most of them would think "hold on...i can feed my family for a 6 months of that money"
<wink>

ie price is still most important thing that sells stuff.
ergo mac 5% and pc 95% marketshare.

i must mention ipod though i dunno was it this or that other thread:
here people just buy other(cheaper) mp3 players and that's it.
what would be the reason to buy ipod?
oh...i got it..it "looks nice".
<wink>

>PS, How good are you at playing Chess? I suspect figuring out Linux, complicated electrical schematics and playing Chess well are related. (I'm bad at Chess too)

why?
i think are many people that like chess and despise pcs for being too complex.
there are pc chess programs though...perhaps that's a good way to practice...

but these days doesn't chess sound like kinda wastage of time on a grand scale to most people?

i'll admit that i like chess, just like my dad and sister. so it's probably just genetics.
i'll also admit pcs are many times just PITA.
<wink>

>Yes, I tried Linux. I very much like the concept, lack of bloat and security it offers.
However, I (unlike you) was too stupid (for lack of a better word) to use it effectively. This bothers me but I can't seem to do anything about it.
I had a month off after a work-related accident and spent the time trying to learn Linux. RedHat, Fedora? Lindows, Suse.... didn't matter. I just can't quite figure out how to compile things, set up the OS, Drivers or Programs.

the thing is, users shouldn't be compiling anything. programmers should.
and you're not programmer, right?
therefore you're right. and so is 99% of others that don't/can't use linux.

>On top of that, I like modern Apple Hardware.

i fail to see what's there to like or dislike?
i want harwdare to be fast so i wouldn't really care what's inside the box, as long as it's fast.
could be lil people inside for all that i care.
so i don't understand affection towards hardware.

towards content...that i do. content is why hardware exists.

[Smellydeli]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

Because Steve Jobs is a god and knows what his legions need:

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=16233

Also Vista is a fine OS. It's just that people have become so settled into XP for 8 years that people refuse to change and upgrade.

[NxB]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

Lol @ the sony guy. I think macs and sony go hand in hand. If it breaks, buy new, retail.

I don't understand why some people won't buy used. I've run into this problem too. A client would not consider refurbs even though they were cheaper for the same item and came with a warranty. At my company buy used would definitely be an option, issues of not being able to run an older OS aside.

I have not had to compile much if anything on linux since my slackware days. There is a package for almost everything now. I haven't even had to recompile the kernel. Also, if people are so ignorant that they won't try free software which actually replicates functionality, I would not tell them how to pirate the real thing. They don't deserve to pirate if they don't try the free one. The Sony guy sounds like a customer I would ditch in general.

As for women and macs, I know just as many women that HATE macs as ones that like them. I think its a comfort issue more than anything. I'm ok with both platforms, I really just like windows for the apps.

[i4004]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

>I don't understand why some people won't buy used


ergo, you don't know the difference between new and used?
hehe...

> I haven't even had to recompile the kernel.

even?
hehe...most win users don't know what kernel is, let alone what is compiling...

>The Sony guy sounds like a customer I would ditch in general.

because he has a sony product AND listens to rush, or just one or the other?
<wink>

i have few sony products and thus far it's pretty good quality....but that most companies are getting cheaper and chaper when it comes to mfr costs is true...sony is not exception...

> I really just like windows for the apps.

that's the key: win just has more software selection.

[ratdude747]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

more selection of viruses, that is. most mainstream apps have linux counterparts. only exceptions are cartography and high-end video editing. the rest has apps for linux or has a windows version that works under wine.

so windows= more apps is true but most of them suck.

[i4004]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

that's true in any supermarket too(for any product) but would you like to see just one instead of that selection?

it's just poor argument to say more selection sucks...
because less selection definitely sucks more.

>high-end video editing

low end too. you just don't have some tools on osx and linux that windows has, because windows is older and much more popular.
and that doesn't go just for video etc.
it goes for everything.
windows library of programs is enormous...
and i like big libraries...hehe...

[NxB]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

I'm surprised you have a sony product that works. I see so much broken sony stuff and its often a pain in the ass to fix.

Linux counterparts work great. Wine can run stuff. Linux is great. For some reason I prefer it on laptops more than desktops (power managment issues asside) unless its a server. I like some windows apps better though and see no real reason to only use linux and have to find replacements.

[i4004]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

>I'm surprised you have a sony product that works. I see so much broken sony stuff and its often a pain in the ass to fix.

perhaps a wave of bad sony products still didn't splash our place...hehe

as you're usually some years ahead.

>and see no real reason to only use linux and have to find replacements.

much of the people's choices can be explained by habits.
to that extent i also say "screw novelty if i have something that works".
now if you tell me that i would be able to burn dvdr 10x faster on linux, or that it has no pagefile lag that win has perhaps i would switch, but i don't think you can say that...
oh yeah, it should also boot much faster and have working stby...
<wink>

this way, all i would get would be the need to learn new things about new os...
no time for that.

[ratdude747]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

no, i mean 20 items of one thing but half of them count way too much and use dog pee instead of water in the canning.

but, who said linux has few choices? read on:

linux actually has more choices. you can make it what you want it to be. you dont have to sit there and get used to having microsoft/apple telling the computer what to do (DRM), you tell the computer what to do. with windows, all you can choose from is vista with different restrictions; with mac you are forced based on how old you machine is (by age not hardware capability) and who made it. with linux, you have hundreds of different distributions to choose from. some are free, some cost money. all let you choose and share it.

you can change computer without having to buy a new copy or re-activate and risk getting blacklisted. with windows and mac, you get one gui. with linux you have 2 mainstream choices with 3 others depending on what you want and need. and if you dont like either of them , you can modify it to your needs and even make a new one entirely.

with apps, you also have choices. there is instead of itunes or wmp, you can use amorok, rythmbox/totem, songbird, listen, as well as others. instead of office and iwork, you can use openoffice, kde office, or the gnome series of offoce apps. they even have others like scribus.

instead of imovie or windows movie maker you can use Kino. yes, kino lets you video edit under linux and it is free.

with linux, you dont have to make do with the shit they hand you for you in exchange for your wallet, you make it what you want. linux is freedom for the consumer, windows/mac is shackes for the consumer.

[Junk Parts]

Re: Another Example of Apple's Superior Operating System

And some of us don't mind that windows tells the computer what to do. Wasn't that the whole point of the GUI interface anyway? I'm not sitting here typing a shit pile of DOS commands...Wait a second. I'm not typing any DOS commands at all! If I want to do something 95% of the time windows has the ability to do it. If it can't it will make some sort of recomendation. If I don't like what windows uses ie: Media Player I'm free as a bird to uses some other app for that task and set windows to always default to this app. You just have to understand that windows is just like linux in this way. I can add or subtract most any windows app I want to, and use the app of my choice to do the job.