capacitor ripple vs endurance & other questions
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Mann-Made Global Warming.
- We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
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Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
- Dr Seuss
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You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
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Re: capacitor ripple vs endurance & other questions
Ahh.. so impedance is ESR. I was looking for Electrostatic Resistance.Comment
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Re: capacitor ripple vs endurance & other questions
Lets run an example cap through the math so everyone finally gets it:
I chose a 1500uF 6.3v MBZ with ESR = 0.026 Ohms
[Middle of the normal range of caps on mobos and Rubycon gives actual ESR in data sheet vs Impedance.]
Z = Impedance
C = 1500 uF = 0.0015 F
ESR = .026 Ohm [squared = 0.000676 Ohm]
ƒ = 100 kHz = 100,000 Hz [Data sheet standard.]
p = PI = 3.14159
10 nH = 0.00000001 H
-- nH guessed as reasonable based on other reading. Is physical size dependent.
-- Lytics range from 4 nF for an itty bitty to 34 nF for a beer can cap.]
XC= 1 ÷ 2pƒC
2pƒC = 2 x 3.14159 x 100000Hz x 0.0015F = 942.477
XC = 1 ÷ 942.477 = 0.001061
XC = 0.001061
XL = 2pƒL
XL = 2pƒL = 2 x 3.14159 x 100000Hz x 0.00000001H = 0.006283
XL = 0.006283
(XL - XC) = 0.005222
(XL - XC)² = 0.0000273
Z² = ESR² + (XL - XC)² = 0.000676 + 0.0000273 = 0.0007033
Z² = 0.0007033
Z = 0.0265
Z is only 0.0005 different from ESR at 100kHz
That's less than 2% different.
.Mann-Made Global Warming.
- We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
-
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
- Dr Seuss
-
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
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Comment
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Re: capacitor ripple vs endurance & other questions
I could never see the chalkboard in math class.Comment
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Re: capacitor ripple vs endurance & other questions
Not ~really~ but close enough at 100kHz.
Lets run an example cap through the math so everyone finally gets it:
I chose a 1500uF 6.3v MBZ with ESR = 0.026 Ohms
[Middle of the normal range of caps on mobos and Rubycon gives actual ESR in data sheet vs Impedance.]
Z = Impedance
C = 1500 uF = 0.0015 F
ESR = .026 Ohm [squared = 0.000676 Ohm]
ƒ = 100 kHz = 100,000 Hz [Data sheet standard.]
p = PI = 3.14159
10 nH = 0.00000001 H
-- nH guessed as reasonable based on other reading. Is physical size dependent.
-- Lytics range from 4 nF for an itty bitty to 34 nF for a beer can cap.]
XC= 1 ÷ 2pƒC
2pƒC = 2 x 3.14159 x 100000Hz x 0.0015F = 942.477
XC = 1 ÷ 942.477 = 0.001061
XC = 0.001061
XL = 2pƒL
XL = 2pƒL = 2 x 3.14159 x 100000Hz x 0.00000001H = 0.006283
XL = 0.006283
(XL - XC) = 0.005222
(XL - XC)² = 0.0000273
Z² = ESR² + (XL - XC)² = 0.000676 + 0.0000273 = 0.0007033
Z² = 0.0007033
Z = 0.0265
Z is only 0.0005 different from ESR at 100kHz
That's less than 2% different.
.Mann-Made Global Warming.
- We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
-
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
- Dr Seuss
-
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
-
Comment
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Re: capacitor ripple vs endurance & other questions
I managed to find capacitors for all the other values except for the 470uf @ 25V (10x16mm).
I want to use either Nic Components NRSJ, NRSK, sanyo WG, or Rubycon ZLG, but I'm having a hard time finding someone who sells these capacitors. Does anyone know of any good suppliers that carry one of these brands in the specified size above?Comment
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Re: capacitor ripple vs endurance & other questions
Where are you located? Profile location is blank...?
In USA, you ~generally~ won't find them. You may find 1 out of the whole group from a distributor who will only sell them in qty of 1,000 or more.
Use DigiKey, Mouser, Newark, badcaps.net.
Stick with Nichicon, Panasonic, Nippon Chemi-con, Rubycon, Samxon
Great overall selection and you won't pull all your hair out trying to find them...veritas odium paritComment
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Re: capacitor ripple vs endurance & other questions
Where are you located?
Use DigiKey, Mouser, Newark, badcaps.net.Comment
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Re: capacitor ripple vs endurance & other questions
.
United Chemicon KZE (ammo pack - cheaper):
661-EKZE250ETD471MJ1
United Chemicon KY:
661-EKY250ELL471MJ1
Nichicon HE:
647-UHE1E471MPD6
These are Mouser part numbers.Last edited by momaka; 08-21-2010, 01:08 PM.Comment
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Comment
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Re: capacitor ripple vs endurance & other questions
The ratings to look at beyond uF and volts are ESR and Ripple.
[Remember going up in volts isn't a problem.]
ESR is isn't really Impedance (Z) - but:
At the 100kHz they use for data sheets Xc and ESL are at values such that *effectively* ESR = Impedance.
The actual equation is:
Z² = ESR² + (XL - XC)²
[Note: (XL - XC) must be corrected to a positive value if it isn't.]
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------SNIP-------
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If XL-XC <0, then squaring that value will automatically result in a postive number, 'cause a negative number times a negative number is a negative negative (i.e., positive) number.
Now if the formula/equation called for raising it to an odd numbered power, then you would need to be sure to take the absolute value.
regards,
unitron
(who's currently screwing around with a DAC-19M015 out of a Westinghouse SK-19H210S)Comment
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Re: capacitor ripple vs endurance & other questions
XL-XC aren't squared in all equations and the value must not be <0.Mann-Made Global Warming.
- We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
-
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
- Dr Seuss
-
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
-
Comment
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Re: capacitor ripple vs endurance & other questions
Oh, this is tooo funny -
>>(who's currently screwing around with a DAC-19M015 out of a Westinghouse SK-19H210S)<<
Look up "DAC-19M015" in Google and go to the ShopJimmy.com result.
If you don't see it in the small pic, use the enlarge function...
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Well??
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.
.
Come on.....
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.
.
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Comes with pre-blown cap!!
Send me a dozen, will ya?!?veritas odium paritComment
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Re: capacitor ripple vs endurance & other questions
Hahahaha, that was the best one today by far"The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."Comment
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Re: capacitor ripple vs endurance & other questions
It's been enough years since electronics classes that I don't recall the others that involve both inductive *and* capacitive reactance, and the books aren't ready to hand, but I was only talking about the equation you actually used, which is basically the one for impedence--resistance along the X axis, starting at 0 and moving to the right, XL - XC along the Y Axis, and impedence is the hypotenuse of the resulting triangle, in other words, the Pythagorean Theorem--called for the squaring of XL-XC.
Now that I think about it, staring points and directions don't really matter. You take resistance, put it at a right angle to the difference between inductive reactance and capacitive reactance, and measure the length between the two unconnected line ends, and that's your impedence. Polarity/sign doesn't matter because what you're dealing with are lengths, and there isn't really any such thing as a negative length. Either something has length or it's a one-dimensional point.Comment
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Re: capacitor ripple vs endurance & other questions
Oh, this is tooo funny -
>>(who's currently screwing around with a DAC-19M015 out of a Westinghouse SK-19H210S)<<
Look up "DAC-19M015" in Google and go to the ShopJimmy.com result.
If you don't see it in the small pic, use the enlarge function...
.
.
.
Well??
.
.
.
Come on.....
.
.
.
.
Comes with pre-blown cap!!
Send me a dozen, will ya?!?
Discount-Merchant has a picture of one where the caps are actually going to wait until you've gone to the trouble of installing the board and applying power before going bad, but they're currently out of stock.Comment
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Re: capacitor ripple vs endurance & other questions
It's been enough years since electronics classes that I don't recall the others that involve both inductive *and* capacitive reactance, and the books aren't ready to hand, but I was only talking about the equation you actually used, which is basically the one for impedence--resistance along the X axis, starting at 0 and moving to the right, XL - XC along the Y Axis, and impedence is the hypotenuse of the resulting triangle, in other words, the Pythagorean Theorem--called for the squaring of XL-XC.
Now that I think about it, staring points and directions don't really matter. You take resistance, put it at a right angle to the difference between inductive reactance and capacitive reactance, and measure the length between the two unconnected line ends, and that's your impedence. Polarity/sign doesn't matter because what you're dealing with are lengths, and there isn't really any such thing as a negative length. Either something has length or it's a one-dimensional point.
You can grab a copy at most any cap manufacturer's site.
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They don't [or didn't used to] teach ESR in school.
The 3 foot tall stack of Navy NEETS training manuals as 2 or 3 sentences about ESR and that's it.
Civilian programs covered it about as well.
It got a casual mention saying it wasn't significant and it wouldn't be included in the equations.
It wasn't significant because they teach DC and jump into RF without covering anything in between.
At DC ESR is zero and at RF it isn't significant compared to Xc.
It's in between DC and RF were ESR matters.
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The reason I explained it that way is so people that aren't math gurus would understand ESR and not trip over the math.
That variable is the difference between XC and XL and which one is greater changes which means negative numbers are possible.
Either [XC-XL] or [XL-XC] work as long as it's + or zero.
The way I deliberately worded it is JUST FINE and deliberately avoided a more complicated discussion that could confuse people.
.Mann-Made Global Warming.
- We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
-
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
- Dr Seuss
-
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
-
Comment
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