PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

[370forlife]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Hmm, well that is true but I still don't fully agree.

I look at most Jonnyguru or hardwaresecrets reviews of psu's and they usually peak at the 40% or 60% load, and are usually the same or a little less at 80%, then drop a bit at 100%.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php...tory3&reid=192

Such as that seasonic x-750, peaks at 40% load.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php...tory3&reid=186

And that topower peaks at 40% load.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php...tory3&reid=189

That corsair peaks at 60% load.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php...tory3&reid=185

Seasonic peaking at 20~40% load.

[momaka]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

FM are better for PSUs than FJ. The ESR is slightly higher and they have a much better endurance lifetime. FJ are the ones that belong on motherboards rather than PSUs

Oops sorry about the confusion. Was it FK then that had ESR between FC and FM? I always seem to get FJ and FK mixed up.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

The dirty little secert about those reviews is both the 4-1850 and the Kill-A-Watt they used don't check Power Factor which means the PFC is spoofing them and their AC Watt numbers are way off.

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[370forlife]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

As long as a psu has APFC, it will keep a pretty constant .99 PF. Older reviews where units without APFC showed up, more specifically when Jon did the reviews, he did calculate the PF. Though the brand is a bit more sophisticated than a kill-a-watt. It is not easily fooled by non-APFC units.

Hardwaresecrets does indeed have a meter that shows the PF, though. Even their numbers still agree with me. They use a GWinstek GPM-8212.

[370forlife]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/artic...-Review/1049/7
Peaks at 40%

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/artic...-Review/1046/7
Peaks at 40%

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/artic...-Review/1043/7
Peaks at 40%

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/artic...-Review/1036/7
Peaks at...40%, skydives at...80%

Now, whats your excuse as to why they are wrong?

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

You still don't get it.

PFC makes PSU's LESS efficient and hides the actual power use.
PFC adds more components that lose heat -> power loss.

If you took a PFC unit and removed the PFC [to keep the same exact design of the rest of the PSU] the efficiency would go UP.
- Except on the wattmeter which PFC was specifically designed to spoof.
- That is ALL PFC was ever for. It benefits the power companies in the UK where they made it law so everyone that wants to sell PSU's in the UK -has- to put it in to be legal.

- There ZERO NONE NADDA benifit to the owner of the PSU.

- All PFC does is make power company power meters read higher than they would if you didn't have it.

- It does that by shifting the phase angle between volts and amps.
- Which spoofs watt meters..

So:
The curves you are pulling up are tweeked. - Bogus.
A -real- curve is not within 2 or 3 % over the whole range.
[Incidentally 2 or 3 % is about the accuracy of those watt meters so the variance acroos the range means nothing much. - Might as well be a flat line.]

A PSU that's efficiency actually peaks at 50% load would be ONE CRAPPY PSU.

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[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

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A legitimate Efficiency Curve is shaped more like this:

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[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

As I recall your daddy is an electrical engineer of some kind.
- Go ask him...
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[370forlife]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Actually, the meter used by hardwaresecrets has a error margin of only .2%. It is specifically designed for use in testing power supplies.

You know that their unit measures the PF of the unit, too. If the unit has a PF of .99, then you know the ratio of active to apparent is .99

Traditional power supplies without any PFC have a PF factor of anywhere from .6 to .65. This means only 65% of the power the unit is consuming is actually being used, the other 35% is trapped and unusable by the apparent power. As you said, the EU made PFC mandatory in psu's over 75W as the consumer is the one paying for the active, while the power companies have to shell out for the apparent. So it actually makes the power company's meter read lower, more to what you are actually using.

Having a shit PF factor (like .65) is what tricks meters into thinking that a psu is consuming more than it really is. A PF factor of .99 means that only 1% of that power is trapped and unusable. PFC does not effect efficiency in any way what so ever (except for a small decrease, more components, more heat, etc...). The only thing that effects efficiency is topology, components used, and heat.

As I recall your daddy is an electrical engineer of some kind. - Go ask him... .

Wrong person.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

PF doesn't relate to efficiency.
.65 PF does not mean 65% efficiency in the PSU.
- Just that error shows you are lost...

Efficiency is Power-Out / Power-in.

In a PSU: Power-Out = Power to the load [system] + Heat losses.

When you have a unit and add PFC you add heat losses via more components,
- but the load [system] doesn't change.

You are using more energy for the same output to the system.
That is a LOSS of efficiency, not a gain.

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[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

In essence all PFC does is give you more heat losses to make the the power companies watt-meter read higher so they can bill you more.

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[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

That said,,, modern PSU's are generally more efficient..

But PFC - DOESN'T HAVE SQUAT TO DO WITH IT.

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[370forlife]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

PF doesn't relate to efficiency.
.65 PF does not mean 65% efficiency in the PSU.
- Just that error shows you are lost...

Efficiency is Power-Out / Power-in.

In a PSU: Power-Out = Power to the load [system] + Heat losses.

When you have a unit and add PFC you add heat losses via more components,
- but the load [system] doesn't change.

You are using more energy for the same output to the system.
That is a LOSS of efficiency, not a gain.

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I never said that a PF of .65 is 65% efficiency. I said thats the PF factor.

HUGE FUCKING DIFFERENCE. Just shows you are not paying attention at all to what I am say, just skimming. So here's an example:

Lets say your power supply is at the plug using 200W of active power. with a PF of .65 , then your apparent power is 330W. You, the consumer, pay for the 200W of active power, while the power company has to "pay" for the 330W of apparent power, as well as adding the extra strain on the whole system when thousands of these poor PF power supplies are running. The EU made PFC mandatory to "relieve strain on the electrical system and provide more active power" though it really just saved the electrical companies money.

Yes, I agree that adding a PFC circuit decreases efficiency and increases heat, no question about that. But other things like using Single or 2 transistor forward or LLC resonant with lower RDS(on) parts and lower loss schottky's increase efficiency a lot more. PFC has nothing to do with efficiency (only hurting it) it only benefits the power companies.

Old, mostly non-PFC power supplies use a inefficient design called Half Bridge and ultrafasts on the secondary, all high loss, low efficiency parts.

[370forlife]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

In essence all PFC does is give you more heat losses to make the the power companies watt-meter read higher so they can bill you more.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, no

Assuming same efficiency, you pay no more for a 500W non-APFC psu than a 500W APFC psu. The consumer only has to pay the active power. (the part actually being used) The apparent power the power companies have to absorb, which the apparent power is always higher than the active power.

APFC only adds to the cost of the psu and makes it cheaper for the electrical companies.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

I never said that a PF of .65 is 65% efficiency.

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Yes you did, right here...
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Traditional power supplies without any PFC have a PF factor of anywhere from .6 to .65. This means only 65% of the power the unit is consuming is actually being used

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[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

Just shows you are not paying attention at all to what I am say, just skimming.

TRUE
I only read until I see a mistake.
Isn't taking long.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

APFC only adds to the cost of the psu and makes it cheaper for the electrical companies.

.... cheaper for the electrical companies ...
.... because they can bill the consumer more for the SAME load. [The PC.]

[370forlife]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

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Yes you did, right here...
.

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You not under stand what PF is? Apparent power vs Active power. The power supply is "using" the Apparent power, but really only 65% is being used as active power.

If you don't even under stand how PF work, you shouldn't be commenting on power supplies. Seriously. Consumers are billed on VA usage, meaning you are only billed on your Active power. Your apparent power is MORE than your active power. The power company has to produce and pay for you apparent power, you pay for your active power. THATS HOW PF WORKS, YOU DO NOT PAY MORE FOR THE SAME EFFICIENCY APFC POWER SUPPLY THAN A NON-APFC POWER SUPPLY.

I'm done. You seem to have some sort of god complex or something that makes you think whatever you spit out or type is true. If you do some simple research you will see what PF really is.

Done trying to explain it to you.

[Scenic]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

as we're slightly off topic here already..

would there be any dangers/drawbacks/etc. if one goes ahead and simply removes the PFC (passive coil or active daughterboard) from a PC PSU?

i'm thinking about removing the active PFC daughterboard from an Antec PSU. seems like an afterthought as it's mounted over the (tiny) primary caps and connects to where the bridge rectifier would be.. (which is now on the PFC daughterboard)

not to mention the "first gen" PFC PSUs with those huge ass transformer-like coils bolted to the case.. (mainly fortrons)

[PCBONEZ]

Re: PC Restarting/ Shutting off abruptly.

I know exactly what PF is but it relates to an accurate measure of what is input to the PSU. - That's where it ends except that PFC screws up wattmeters and therefor PF's measurement. - Doesn't have squat to do with what happens at the output of the PSU as you seem to think.

Consumers are billed on VA usage -WHERE YOU ARE.
- In the UK that isn't true.
- In some areas of the US that isn't true.
As I said it's the power companies *in the UK* that forced the rest of the world to have PFC.

- PFC is of NO benefit to consumers.
The PC uses what it uses and PFC is just another heat [energy] loss that doesn't need to be there.
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