DC boost converter max power ?

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Khron
    Badcaps Legend
    • Sep 2006
    • 1350
    • Finland

    #21
    Re: DC boost converter max power ?

    Chips like the UC384x series, or MC34063, not to mention the zillions of knockoffs, despite calling them "advanced", simplify the matter of designing these simple DC-DC converters SO much, and they can be had for dirt cheap.

    One could argue that designing a discrete version would actually be that much more difficult, due to the interactions between all the circuit elements (not to mention the tolerances).

    In the case of the chips i've mentioned, you have all the equations in the datasheets (or worst case, in some application notes). All you'd need to do, to make it (even) easier, would be to plug all the needed formulas into a spreadsheet, and mess around with the component values for the passives needed around those chips (a few resistors & caps).

    While technically cheaper, going discrete for a design like this is just making things harder than needed for yourself (not to mention people who are trying to help you). True, the component cost is less, but if you're talking about "profitable for production", you'd also need to factor in the man-hours (and associated cost) for the DESIGN of the thing

    All that is if we disregard the fact that, especially in the case of boost converters, you very much DO want overvoltage protection, at the very least, which is a whole different headache if you insist on not using specialised PWM controllers.

    Just a quick browse on fleabay:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/10Pcs-Dip-8-...MAAOSwHMJYI0rM
    That's TEN pieces for 1.11$AU...

    384x ones are a bit more, 5pcs for around the same price:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/5PCS-IC-UC38...sAAOSwg3FUbbBt

    Mouser prices are, as you'd expect, a bit higher, but it's a 100% legit source (ie. there shouldn't be any risk of fakes, plus you'd have proof of sourcing the components, for RohS qualifications and whatnot).

    34063's start from about 0.46$AU/pc @1pcs, and 384x's (in 8-pin packages) from around 0.79$AU/pc @10pcs, it would seem.

    That's the cost argument right out the window. Next?
    Last edited by Khron; 11-29-2016, 05:57 PM.
    Khron's Cave - Electronics - Audio - Teardowns - Mods - Repairs - Projects - Music - Rants - Shenanigans

    Comment

    • bianchi77
      Badcaps Legend
      • Jun 2016
      • 1121
      • Australia

      #22
      Re: DC boost converter max power ?

      Originally posted by Khron
      Chips like the UC384x series, or MC34063, not to mention the zillions of knockoffs, despite calling them "advanced", simplify the matter of designing these simple DC-DC converters SO much, and they can be had for dirt cheap.

      One could argue that designing a discrete version would actually be that much more difficult, due to the interactions between all the circuit elements (not to mention the tolerances).

      In the case of the chips i've mentioned, you have all the equations in the datasheets (or worst case, in some application notes). All you'd need to do, to make it (even) easier, would be to plug all the needed formulas into a spreadsheet, and mess around with the component values for the passives needed around those chips (a few resistors & caps).

      While technically cheaper, going discrete for a design like this is just making things harder than needed for yourself (not to mention people who are trying to help you). True, the component cost is less, but if you're talking about "profitable for production", you'd also need to factor in the man-hours (and associated cost) for the DESIGN of the thing

      All that is if we disregard the fact that, especially in the case of boost converters, you very much DO want overvoltage protection, at the very least, which is a whole different headache if you insist on not using specialised PWM controllers.

      Just a quick browse on fleabay:

      http://www.ebay.com/itm/10Pcs-Dip-8-...MAAOSwHMJYI0rM
      That's TEN pieces for 1.11$AU...

      384x ones are a bit more, 5pcs for around the same price:
      http://www.ebay.com/itm/5PCS-IC-UC38...sAAOSwg3FUbbBt

      Mouser prices are, as you'd expect, a bit higher, but it's a 100% legit source (ie. there shouldn't be any risk of fakes, plus you'd have proof of sourcing the components, for RohS qualifications and whatnot).

      34063's start from about 0.46$AU/pc @1pcs, and 384x's (in 8-pin packages) from around 0.79$AU/pc @10pcs, it would seem.

      That's the cost argument right out the window. Next?
      Ok, I've read about that UC384X chip as well.It's on my altium now but
      I'm just wondering if I can play with transistor or 555 which I have some on my box and it's multipurpose for doing oscillator job, I know there are some factors I must consider, that's why I learn and learn, anyway I like playing,experimenting and learning, do you ?
      Those transistors and 555s are my toy for a long time already
      yup ...labour cost is expensive...

      What do you suggest for overvoltage and overcurrent protection ?
      What I have experience is the power transistor and oscillator are death by the time there is short on the output....

      The simplest I can think of is put fuse on the output...

      Comment

      • bianchi77
        Badcaps Legend
        • Jun 2016
        • 1121
        • Australia

        #23
        Re: DC boost converter max power ?

        This chip UC3842CP
        Attached Files

        Comment

        • budm
          Badcaps Legend
          • Feb 2010
          • 40746
          • USA

          #24
          Re: DC boost converter max power ?

          Originally posted by bianchi77
          It's a simple astable multivibrator and FET with inductor and resistor voltage divider...I'm not running here but I'm learning here.I don't use any advance PWM chip.I want to know how it works.
          on SATA and PATA, the dual transistor is the PWM, that's a cheap and smart idea to make it into production and they are all fixed and running now....made abit modification and tested for 12 hours run non stop, all good....learning and learning...
          The price of 2 transistors and 1 power FET will be cheaper than 1 advance PWM chip, profitable for production...
          So you are saying that you can now get 220VDC at 1A and ran it for 12 Hours?
          Can we see the pictures of the prototype? input current = ??? Regulation = ???%, Input Voltage range?
          Did the inductor go into saturation? etc.
          https://cdn.badcaps-static.com/pdfs/...6c9f827c6c.pdf
          Never stop learning
          Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
          http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

          Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
          http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

          Inverter testing using old CFL:
          http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

          Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
          http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

          TV Factory reset codes listing:
          http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

          Comment

          • bianchi77
            Badcaps Legend
            • Jun 2016
            • 1121
            • Australia

            #25
            Re: DC boost converter max power ?

            Originally posted by budm
            So you are saying that you can now get 220VDC at 1A and ran it for 12 Hours?
            Can we see the pictures of the prototype? input current = ??? Regulation = ???%, Input Voltage range?
            Did the inductor go into saturation? etc.
            https://cdn.badcaps-static.com/pdfs/...6c9f827c6c.pdf
            I'm talking about the SATA PATA PSU, it had been fixed and tested for 12 hours with load..
            Nope I haven't got 220VDC at 1A but I will..

            Comment

            • bianchi77
              Badcaps Legend
              • Jun 2016
              • 1121
              • Australia

              #26
              Re: DC boost converter max power ?

              I got 40V on RL = 4K7, and the input is 12V 60VA, how can I increase the output voltage ? so I = 8.5 mA
              Does my oscilatting frequency matter ? I used 3Khz now...
              Cheers
              Last edited by bianchi77; 11-30-2016, 09:54 PM.

              Comment

              • budm
                Badcaps Legend
                • Feb 2010
                • 40746
                • USA

                #27
                Re: DC boost converter max power ?

                Originally posted by bianchi77
                I got 40V on RL = 4K7, and the input is 12V 60VA, how can I increase the output voltage ? so I = 8.5 mA
                Does my oscilatting frequency matter ? I used 3Khz now...
                Cheers
                What do you mean 12V 60VA? 12V and how many the circuit is drawing from the 12V? So it drops from over 200VDC no load down to 40V with only 8.5mA of current draw, it is not working, that is all I can tell you.
                60VA?
                VA:
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt-ampere.
                Well since you do not want to do any calculation and using formula to find out if your inductor will work with that 3KHz then you are just making guessing game. 3KHz, really?
                Never stop learning
                Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                Inverter testing using old CFL:
                http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

                Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
                http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                TV Factory reset codes listing:
                http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

                Comment

                • budm
                  Badcaps Legend
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 40746
                  • USA

                  #28
                  Re: DC boost converter max power ?

                  Probably will be too much to learn and a waste time to understand basic principle.
                  https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/a...ex.mvp/id/2031
                  https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/a...ex.mvp/id/1897
                  Beside the circuit, the parts lay out is also VERY IMPORTANT! You can have the most wonderful circuit on the piece paper but if the layout is bad then it is worthless.
                  Last edited by budm; 11-30-2016, 10:56 PM.
                  Never stop learning
                  Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                  Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                  Inverter testing using old CFL:
                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

                  Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
                  http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                  TV Factory reset codes listing:
                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

                  Comment

                  • bianchi77
                    Badcaps Legend
                    • Jun 2016
                    • 1121
                    • Australia

                    #29
                    Re: DC boost converter max power ?

                    Originally posted by budm
                    Probably will be too much to learn and a waste time to understand basic principle.
                    https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/a...ex.mvp/id/2031
                    https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/a...ex.mvp/id/1897
                    Beside the circuit, the parts lay out is also VERY IMPORTANT! You can have the most wonderful circuit on the piece paper but if the layout is bad then it is worthless.
                    An experiment 124V with RL 47K ..it's running and when I touch the resistor , I felt the heat on it...it's 2.6 mA on 124V..
                    Thanks for the tutorial, I'm using figure 2 topology..

                    Comment

                    • bianchi77
                      Badcaps Legend
                      • Jun 2016
                      • 1121
                      • Australia

                      #30
                      Re: DC boost converter max power ?

                      Continuing experiment now it's 308V at RL 47K...it matters of duty cycle of my PWM...
                      that's the factor I've been playing now to get the right power, are you playing (doing experiment) with switching power supply as well ?
                      for 10 Watt, it will be RL = 4840 ohms or 4K7 1/10 of my current RL....that's ok I like learning and experiment the basic ===>
                      Battery ==> inductor ==> switch
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by bianchi77; 12-01-2016, 05:51 PM.

                      Comment

                      • budm
                        Badcaps Legend
                        • Feb 2010
                        • 40746
                        • USA

                        #31
                        Re: DC boost converter max power ?

                        Read the link yet? See Figure 5:
                        https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/a...ex.mvp/id/2031
                        To do simple experiment, replace the switch with MOSFET and drive it with signal generator, then you can play with frequency, inductor value, etc. Look at the wave form with scope, etc.. you need to collect the data and see if it jives with the calculation.
                        Last edited by budm; 12-01-2016, 07:38 PM.
                        Never stop learning
                        Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                        http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                        Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                        http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                        Inverter testing using old CFL:
                        http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

                        Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
                        http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                        TV Factory reset codes listing:
                        http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

                        Comment

                        • bianchi77
                          Badcaps Legend
                          • Jun 2016
                          • 1121
                          • Australia

                          #32
                          Re: DC boost converter max power ?

                          Yes I have read the link, thanks for that,
                          now I got 218V with RL = 10K, nearly 5W ...it's doing the job but not stable...the voltage is dropping to 205V...I have no idea why, yet...trying to find out why ?
                          Duty cycle 99.8%...

                          Comment

                          • budm
                            Badcaps Legend
                            • Feb 2010
                            • 40746
                            • USA

                            #33
                            Re: DC boost converter max power ?

                            http://www.daycounter.com/LabBook/Bo...quations.phtml
                            http://www.daycounter.com/Calculator...lculator.phtml

                            You may be able to contact the person.
                            Excert:
                            So it is clear that the output voltage is related directly to the duty cycle of the pulses.
                            The main question when designing a converter is what sort of inductor should be used. In most designs the input voltage, output voltage and load current are all dictated by the requirements of the design, whereas, the Inductance and ripple current are the only free parameters. It can be seen form Equation 1, that the inductance is inversely proportional to the ripple current. In other words, if you want to reduce the ripple, then use a larger inductor. Thus, in practice a ripple current is decided upon which will give a reasonable inductance.

                            There are tradeoffs with low and high ripple current. Large ripple current means that the peak current is ipk greater, and the greater likelihood of saturation of the inductor, and more stress on the transistor.

                            So when choosing an inductor make sure that the saturation current of the inductor is greater than ipk. Likewise, the transistor should be able to handle peak current greater than ipk. The inductor should also be chosen such that the it can handle the appropriate rms current.

                            It should be noted that when there is a light load the circuit can slip into discontinuous mode, where the inductor becomes fully discharged of it's current each cycle. When a load is reapplied the inductor needs to recharge, and so the transistor's duty cycle increases pulling the inductor towards ground, and because of the increased duty cycle Vout decreases when we really want it to increase. This causes an instability, which is well known for boost converters, and not a problem with buck converters.

                            One way to combat this instability is to choose a large enough inductor so that the ripple current is greater than twice the minimum load current. When this condition is met then the inductor is always in continuous mode.
                            Last edited by budm; 12-01-2016, 10:27 PM.
                            Never stop learning
                            Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                            http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                            Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                            http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                            Inverter testing using old CFL:
                            http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

                            Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
                            http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                            TV Factory reset codes listing:
                            http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

                            Comment

                            • budm
                              Badcaps Legend
                              • Feb 2010
                              • 40746
                              • USA

                              #34
                              Re: DC boost converter max power ?

                              wrong post, never mind.
                              Never stop learning
                              Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                              Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                              Inverter testing using old CFL:
                              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

                              Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
                              http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                              TV Factory reset codes listing:
                              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

                              Comment

                              • bianchi77
                                Badcaps Legend
                                • Jun 2016
                                • 1121
                                • Australia

                                #35
                                Re: DC boost converter max power ?

                                I used 120uH 2A toroid inductor taken from broken TV PSU...hmm...increase the inductance ? how much percent do you reckon ?
                                I got 230V for the start then drop to 205V in about 60 seconds and RL is hot...
                                Thanks again for the link and equation, so far I used the equation attached...
                                Attached Files

                                Comment

                                • bianchi77
                                  Badcaps Legend
                                  • Jun 2016
                                  • 1121
                                  • Australia

                                  #36
                                  Re: DC boost converter max power ?

                                  According to
                                  http://www.daycounter.com/LabBook/Bo...quations.phtml

                                  L equation at the end, I need 34.8 mH inductor
                                  Vout =220 V Vin = 12V VD = 1V D = 0.99 iLoad = 20mA f = 3KHz

                                  Comment

                                  • bianchi77
                                    Badcaps Legend
                                    • Jun 2016
                                    • 1121
                                    • Australia

                                    #37
                                    Re: DC boost converter max power ?

                                    I'm thinking if I increase the frequency, it will reduce the inductor size but from my experiment if I increase the frequency, it will reduce the voltage output. but I'll make another experiment to make sure

                                    Comment

                                    • bianchi77
                                      Badcaps Legend
                                      • Jun 2016
                                      • 1121
                                      • Australia

                                      #38
                                      Re: DC boost converter max power ?

                                      It works, have a look :
                                      https://youtu.be/VNoJVBk37zA
                                      needs bigger inductor to increase power...probably 1mH is the limit for the stability on the loop...
                                      Any idea for a better feedback circuit than voltage divider ?

                                      Comment

                                      • budm
                                        Badcaps Legend
                                        • Feb 2010
                                        • 40746
                                        • USA

                                        #39
                                        Re: DC boost converter max power ?

                                        BTW, what is the input current to the circuit right now at full load?
                                        Never stop learning
                                        Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                                        http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                                        Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                                        http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                                        Inverter testing using old CFL:
                                        http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

                                        Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
                                        http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                                        TV Factory reset codes listing:
                                        http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

                                        Comment

                                        • bianchi77
                                          Badcaps Legend
                                          • Jun 2016
                                          • 1121
                                          • Australia

                                          #40
                                          Re: DC boost converter max power ?

                                          Originally posted by budm
                                          BTW, what is the input current to the circuit right now at full load?
                                          no it not in a full load for the input, I try with low rate amperage inductor and it's still cool, it means there's no heat dissipated from inductor.
                                          Only FET is doing the job properly, but still below the maximum limit.

                                          Comment

                                          Related Topics

                                          Collapse

                                          Working...