Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

[RJARRRPCGP]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

Want quality & quiet? Look to Seasonic, Corsair or PCP&C Silencer, all are built by Seasonic, all use Nipponese caps.

I dunno about PCP&C now. Because someone at ocforums.com reported one blowing and almost causing a fire.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

That's promising but doesn't guarantee anything.
-
The Seasonic/Antec combo has been busted for using crap caps in the past.
[Wish I could remember what model. I'd provide links.]

I'm still wondering if the TP-3 will have all the 12v rails bridged on the PCB at the output (making it one rail) as the TP-2 did.
-
I don't trust companies that blatantly lie in their advertising to suddenly go *poof* and become honest and do right by their customers.

Additionally I've been seeing this "AntecRep" (doubtful there is only one) all over the Internet and it's not all new posts.
[In fact if you read back he/she mentioned seeing my posts on EE.]

- HELP!! - I'M BEING STALKED BY ANTEC!!!

I think it's pathetic that a company sends people out to troll forums and talk hype to improve their image over simply selling a reliable product at something that at least resembles a reasonable price.

.

[Krankshaft]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

Here is an interesting bit of info I have just found out that the Truepower 2 series of Antecs are made by this Taiwanese company (Channel Well Technology). So its no wonder they used those crappy Fukyuu taiwanese caps.

http://www.cwt.com.tw/

The True Power trio series of supplies are made by Seasonic.

[acstech]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

Having had many Antec SP and TP units over the years, here's what I have to say about 'em (and most if not all you guys already know this):

1. They work very well when new.
2. Good voltage regulation, etc for about the first year.
3. After about a year, depending on duty cycle, some of the Fuhjyyu caps start to bulge.
4. A little more time and they start to leak.
5. Then interesting, annoying, and sometimes harmful things start happening to the computer.
6. They can usually be brought back to life, and perform quite well, with a recap job using quality capacitors.

From what I hear Antec uses better capacitors in their newer units. However, I'm done with 'em. I run my own computer sales and service business, and I cannot afford to go fix EVERY PSU I've sold in new computers in a year and a half. Been there, done that. Fortunately capacitors were relatively cheap, I keep good records, my evenings were free for soldering time, and my customers were grateful that I identified problems and fixed things before they had problems or lost data. So I was able to turn a potential nightmare into good customer relations.

I'm one of those people that holds a grudge. Call it a character flaw if you will. If I've been screwed over by one manufacturer, it will be a very long time before I go back. I have gone to Seasonic and FSP, and found them to be excellent in quality. It will be a very long time before I go back to Antec.

[bgavin]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

Then please, bgavin, feel free to continue

AntecRep, you have a lot to learn about PR.

First, it is bad enough you come here and try Corporate Spin with a group of techs that can see through bullshit in a heart beat.

Worse, a PR person should NEVER disparage a competitor's product. Doing so puts egg on your face that is very hard to remove.

Unlike Antec PSUs, the Sparkle model I started using does not come with a board full of Fuhkyyu caps. The lack of Fuhkyyu caps is more than sufficient reason for me to give them a try. I own a service company, and I won't ever come back to Antec. Spin or no spin.

[gonzo0815]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

PCBONEZ is not who we built the SmartPower for.

If he is working in IT, i suppose he has to choose components for other people, thus certainly he has to deal with economic standard PSU`s.
And if the Smart Power was not intended for normal duty, it is left to the manufacturers responsibility to point this out in a manner that at least a qualified technician can understand it.

What you're looking for is a whole new class of power supply designed with only high-end capacitors, low VF Schottky diodes, synchronous rectifiers, coolMOS components where possible, a pair of double-layer PCBs to allow for larger/more robust components and optimal airflow, an ultra-quiet PWM fan, resonant operation, interleaved PFC and PWM, and highly efficient DC to DC voltage regulator modules to power the +5V and +3.3V rails providing tighter voltage regulation and transient response times measured in microseconds.

Well i think for the lower end PSu`s durable caps from reputable brand would be a start there ;-), which should even fit into this categories budget.
From my point of view, there is no way to excuse or deny the capacitor issue within the Smart Power series and there is no way that those particular capacitors will survive the marginal cooling within this PSU`s for any acceptable lifetime.

For the higher end PSu`s with a price tag near 100$ i think the marked options would be a fair trade and should easily be covered within the budget. The DC -DC modules are not necessarily needed, as long as the regulation of the rails could be maintained regardless of the load characteristic or if the intended load characteristic is stated on the label or data sheet.

The components are very cheap, this is certainly no the problem. I am not that naive, that i think this will happen soon, unless a new company will challenge the retail market or Intel will specify this.
As long as a company can sell the same old shit with marginal improvements for a lot of money and a huge gain they will continue to do so.

The normal review of a PSU is from it`s nature a short therm test.
So even the elaborated PSu test can not say anything about the long therm reliability.
In the fast paced IT SOHO market, it is therefore easy, to get away with cheap components and low endurance.

[kc8adu]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

i still see a ton of bad antec psu's.
many less than 6 months old.
every one of them packed with blown fuhjjyu caps.
and several destroyed boards due to them.
not on my shops buy list.
my clients are willing to pay for good stuff to avoid costly downtime.
while i agree you need to take newegg reviews with a grain of salt they still show a pattern failure thats been around too long.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

AntecRep

WHY would anyone RMA to get the same crap that didn't work in the first place?
- Don't follow that line of thought.

Your PSU killed my motherboard and your solution is to give me another PSU that kills motherboards?
- OH GOODIE!!!
- What Luck!!

Your claims in here about you customer serve practices do not follow with comments about same posted in dozens of places about the web.
- The general consciouses is it is slow or non-existent and the replacement is as bad as the original.
- On this I will give you that old posts don't go away so maybe you are in fact working on that.
- I will see if 2008 gives better reviews.
- I will not however try an Antec power supply again FOR YEARS and then only maybe.

>> Blew a hole in a motherboard? Hmmm. If something shorts on a hard drive or <<

How typical of corporate nonsense. - Blaim it on someone else.
[ Been taking lessons from Asus?? ]

Bad PSU's blowing out chipsets is well know among people that actually work on computers. Very well known. Ask Emachines. They were sued by Class Action over a PSU they used that had a habit of blowing out Chipsets on motherboards.
HP, Gateway, and Dell may have been sued also. They used the same one.

~~~

In my case:

Known good motherboard. Had just tested several CPU's with it.
Only a floppy drive attached. [Also known good FDD.]
Decided to check the voltages on the new Antec PSU before I put it in my server.

After 20-30 seconds I smelled that smell from the Antec and the system crashed.
(I was in the BIOS screens, not like under a load.)
Set the Antec aside.
Put in a -MUCH BETTER THAN ANTEC- 9 year old Tiger Pro 350w PSU.
No boot.
Noted hole in motherboard chipset.
Noted blown shit brand caps in Antec PSU and the strong smell of fried electronics.
-
Conclusion. The TP2-550 EPS is CRAP.
-
Put different same model motherboard in with the Tiger Pro and everything else that was there with the Antec.
-
No problems.

~~ Conclusion confirmed.

And for reference I've been an electronics tech since 1981 and in IT since 1999.
I am not some idget hobbyist that doesn't know what he's doing.

.

Newegg reviews only confirm my own conclusions about your PSUs which I have come to by:
DIRECT OBSERVATION.

I don't look at who wrote what or specific comments because I don't know the authors actual skill levels.

The NUMBERS of good vs bad are all that mean anything because the skill levels of the posters will average out as the number of posts goes up.

29% of 532 Antec buyers reported POOR or VERY POOR.

Almost 1/3 of people that buy your products are unsatisfied with them.
That's what matters.

.

[AntecRep]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

Then please, bgavin, feel free to continue

...using Sparkle 120mm PSU as replacements...

[bgavin]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

One can debate until blue in the face.

Too many Fukyuus (pronounced: fukk yoo) cheap caps. I even get RMA units back with Fukyuus installed. Too many dead boards, too many dead, bulging, leaking Antec supplies. Too much warranty work, too many unhappy clients, too much time wasted on RMA bullshit. I can't even recap my Antecs because they use shitty, undersized crap-caps.

For me, the talking is done. Walking has replaced talking. I left Antec behind, and will NEVER come back. It will snow in Hell before I put another Antec in a client machine.

[AntecRep]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

PCBONEZ, saw you over on experts-exchange. Good post. You're certainly right about the cramped spaces inside a high-watt PSU.

As for the NeoHE (NeoPower) and ASUS motherboards, there was an issue all right. The incompatibility had to do with minimum loads and startup timing. The NeoHE PSU worked perfectly with other motherboards, which makes it somewhat simple. Our design fix in response to these motherboard problems was not to fix a 'defect' in our PSU. It was to adjust our reaction to a new way of handling load that the ASUS boards were using, and is very similar to those discussed in the article here: http://www.silentpcreview.com/news652.html You'll notice that the issue is discussed in detail, but Antec is hardly mentioned, since we were only one of four PSU manufacturers that had trouble with the ASUS boards.

Blew a hole in a motherboard? Hmmm. If something shorts on a hard drive or mobo (the two leading culprits in cases that we investigate) it is quite possible to take the power supply down with it. In roughly 80% of cases we investigate, it was not the PSU at fault. If we are contacted with such an issue, we would like to get that PSU to test. If it was our equipment's fault, even though we don't explicitly warrant for collateral damage, we will usually issue a check for the value of the damaged equipment. If we determine that there is a way in which our PSU can fail and cause downstream damage, we can improve the design. With all the over-current protection, over-voltage protection, short-circuit protection, thermal shutdown, and crowbar mode, it is incredibly difficult for things that go wrong inside the PSU to damage downstream components. Still, we get one or two a year, so we continue to investigate all claims.

If you've ever RMAd something to Antec, you know that you received back a brand-new box in the shrink-wrap. It's really a shame when users open a device that could be replaced under warranty. We don't, however, "disown" people who do that. The proud and technically competent people who wear the t-shirts that say, "I void warranties" have absolutely no right to complain when they decide to break that sticker. They are choosing to take ownership of the device, not being disowned by the mfr. You know how it works.

Thank you gonzo0815 for pointing out the importance of design. Many times, the type of design used will dramatically change the tolerance or capacity required of a downstream component. Change the design and the rating for a transistor can go from 900V to 450-500V. Better design can allow the use of smaller components without affecting the MTBF.

The SmartPower was designed to be reliable and provide a serviceable PSU for a reasonable price. The people who purchased it tended to be home users and system builders. It was also designed to be quiet. An interesting point about it is that many people thought they were defective immediately upon installation because the rear fan wasn't spinning. It wasn't supposed to! There were two fans, and the one on the inside of the case was running enough to keep it cool. If it reached a certain temperature, the outside fan would come on. It was described on the box. Covered in the manual. Paper inserts were added to the box. FAQs were put on the website. Many people just couldn't figure it out. Another reason the line was terminated.

PCBONEZ is not who we built the SmartPower for. What you're looking for is a whole new class of power supply designed with only high-end capacitors, low VF Schottky diodes, synchronous rectifiers, coolMOS components where possible, a pair of double-layer PCBs to allow for larger/more robust components and optimal airflow, an ultra-quiet PWM fan, resonant operation, interleaved PFC and PWM, and highly efficient DC to DC voltage regulator modules to power the +5V and +3.3V rails providing tighter voltage regulation and transient response times measured in microseconds. Maybe even that wouldn't do it. We'll see…

You're using NewEgg reviews to refute the opinions of badcaps forum users about the Neo? Whose opinions would you value more highly? And what about JonnyGuru? OklahomaWolf ? Do 'eggers' trump them too?

Also, did you read the reviews from the 16 people who didn't like the Quattro to see what they actually said? There's a common thread… Get back to me and then we'll go over that one.

[hardwareguy]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

If need be, I have been known to leave the leads long ans mount the cap up off the board a bit to make it fit! Of course, the leads get some heat shrink to prevent issues.

The 10mm 3300 and 4700 get tossed universally. I've never seen one older than two years old that was in good shape.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

Besides Fuhjyyu TN and TM series the only other 4700uF 10mm I know of is made by OST in 6.3v in the RLX series.
-
They are all 10x30 mm.
-
Definitely a size that should fade away into non-existence.
.

[Krankshaft]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

Well I took a peak in my Antec Sonata case which houses my personal e-mail server running Windows 2003.

The case included an Antec TP 2.0 so I peak behind the rear fan and I see that Antec replaced the 2 1000uf Fukyuus (that my other recapped supply had) with 2 Teapos and they were not bulged.

Teapos seem to be at home in PSUs and work well there. On mobos is another story.

However I looked a little to the right and what do I find they kept the Fukyuus as general purpose capacitors.

While they probably pose no threat there COME ON if a crappy capacitor manufacturer sullied my reputation I would wipe it clean off the board.

It seems Antec is still out to save a few cents.

I guess I'm recapping this one as well. All the GP Fukyuus will be replaced with Chemicon General Purpose KMG caps.

I will be taking this supply out of service soon to check the secondary capacitors I BETTER NOT FIND ANY FUKYUUS THERE.

I agree with you PC getting my 12.5 FCs in that 10mm space was a real pain in the ass.

I go as far to say that those small high value caps may have been the reason that they failed. A smaller cap requires the plates to be closer together which requires a good electrolyte to prevent the plates from arcing.

And who knows you may need to make some "rated life" compromosises by making them smaller too.

I have NEVER seen a 4700uf cap AT ANY WV at 10 milimeters in diameter whats the matter was Fukyuu the only manufacturer that would stoop low enough to make these subpar caps for you?

[PCBONEZ]

Re: SmartPowers, caps, RMA, and other models

gonzo0815, MixMasta

I was wondering exactly the same thing. I just hadn't got there yet.

The SmartPowers were the quiet home-user model designed for people who turned on their computers for a few hours per day.

#1: Where did you state in the advertising that this unit wasn't designed to handle more than a few hours a day use?

#2: WHY would anyone deliberately build such a weak power supply?

#3: This clearly shows that you HAVE NO CLUE about the needs in the market for one of your major products.
-
A person that uses a computer 'only a few hours a day' is very unlikely to be a person that is going to build their own computer. They will buy a computer from a builder. (Be it a small local builder or some major entity.)
-
A builder rarely has the slightest idea how long the end user is going to be using the computer. The builder will not know went it is built if the machine will be running one 1 hour a day or 24/7/365.**
If a competent builder, he (or she) is not going to knowing purchase a PSU that is only good for "a few hours a day". The risk of warranty returns, lost man-hours, and resulting lost profits would be far too high.

How convient that you didn't mention the PSU was only designed with a duty cycle of "a few hours a day" in the advertising. - If you had no one (certainly no PC tech) in their right mind would buy one and most of them would still be safely stored unused in your warehouse.



** That assuming it actually works for a whole 365 days, which is debatable.

.

[MixMasta]

Re: SmartPowers, caps, RMA, and other models

The SmartPowers were the quiet home-user model designed for people who turned on their computers for a few hours per day.

AntecRep, please point us to the documentation that came with these power supply that indicated this. Oh wait, there isn't any! I guess we are all stupid for using your SmartPower and Trupower power suppies for more then a few hours a day (though I have many, many examples of failed units from people who didn't), because apparently thats all your high priced power supplies were designed for?

[gonzo0815]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

I think in PSU`s it depends more on geral design, especially the thermal & noise management if a particular capacitor will last or not.

I think that is the message, we can learn form the intensive discussion of the problems here.

My personal opinion is, that the lower quality caps can`t sustain the usual temperatures in PSU`s in a controlled manner.
Thus quality branded caps are for me the poor mans sign for a reliable high quality PSU.
If a product is not suited for certain applications, then the manufacturer has to state this clearly (may be a sticker : "this PSU is not designed for daily usage").

Therefore i i do not recommend, encourage the use or buy PSu`s with marginal capacitor brands, unless recapping is a feasible option.
No marketing spin will change this hard learned lesson, as RMA procedures are always very unpleasant and are problematic especially for small integrator.

[kc8adu]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

thats realy funny!
the echostar is the poster child for gutless wonder piece of shit power supply!
we shit can those on sight!
and btw i have already recapped some newer antec units with ost cap failures.
seems ost is still shit.

And the TP2-550 EPS might indeed perform that well if you hadn't chosen to use the lowest quality capacitors that you could possibly find anywhere in any market.

I have an EchoStar 580w that I paid something like $20 for that out performs, is MUCH more stable, and outlasted both the TP2-550 or TP2-550 EPS Antec PSU's that I bought.
The best of the two Antecs only lasted 4 months.


.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

For high quality & efficiency, we created the NeoPower. Modular cabling and multiple rails meant that this was designed for the enthusiast market. As a result, take a look at what badcaps users say about them .

Instead lets take a look at what actual owners from a larger sample size say about your PSUs.

NeoPower

NeoPower 430 ATX12V --- 44% of 50 buyers rated it as Poor or Very Poor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817103939

NeoPower 500 ATX12V --- 24% of 126 buyers rated it as Poor or Very Poor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817103940

NeoPower 550 ATX12V 550W --- 28% of 283 buyers rated it as Poor or Very poor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817103941

NeoPower 650 Blue ATX12V / EPS12V --- 29% of 17 buyers rated it as Very Poor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817371010

Overall for NeoPower - 138 of 476 [ 29% ] rated it as POOR or VERY POOR.

~~~~

Quattro

Quattro TPQ-850 ATX12V / EPS12V --- 22% of 37 buyers rated it as Poor or Very Poor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817371009

Quattro TPQ-1000 ATX12V / EPS12V --- 42% of 19 buyers rated it as Poor or Very Poor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817371012

Overall for Quattro - 16 of 56 [ 29% ] rated it as POOR or VERY POOR.

~~~~

Is anyone perhaps interested in a raffle?

Whoever guesses closest to the actual date Antec goes out of business wins the pot.

.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Yet another victim of Antec! Q about cap replacement or RMA

For the tightest power regulation, TruePower provided +/-3% stability. The TP2-550 EPS was the PSU for our server cases until just recently.

~~~~~~~~

The Trio is not modular, but with three cleverly balanced rails..............

And the TP2-550 EPS might indeed perform that well if you hadn't chosen to use the lowest quality capacitors that you could possibly find anywhere in any market.

I have an EchoStar 580w that I paid something like $20 for that out performs, is MUCH more stable, and outlasted both the TP2-550 or TP2-550 EPS Antec PSU's that I bought.
The best of the two Antecs only lasted 4 months.
One of the TP2's damaged a motherboard beyond all repair.
[The TP2 literally blew a hole in the motherboards chipset when it failed.]

~~~

You advertised the TP2's as having two 12v rails but that is not the case.
The stickers on the side clearly state the OUTPUTS are separate 19 amps rails.

However, all the 12v outputs are connected internally by jumpers on the PCB.
All the 12v wires are connected to the same electrical point.
They are NOT separate and there is only ONE 12v rail on the output.
- I have close up photos of the PCB's if you doubt me.

[ This is blatant false advertising. ]
If you were not misrepresenting the product the label would state a single 12v output at 38 amps. (Assuming the amps in 2 x 19 amps is not a lie as well.)

Given that, I have doubts the TP3 actually has three 12v rails. I would not be particularly surprised if they have only one 12v output just as the TP2 does.

~~~

Personally I think having one high capacity output at 12v is a better design but that doesn't change the fact that you present the product as have separate 12v output rails and it does not.

.