Something is short on my van, but what?

[eccerr0r]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

We've had 100 years of lead acid batteries and... this is new territory?

That's what I feared, nobody has done this study and it's just hearsay yet some people keep claiming that this is true without actually doing the experiments.

And people believe it! Sad, sad people in this world.

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

We've had 100 years of lead acid batteries and... this is new territory?

That's what I feared, nobody has done this study and it's just hearsay yet some people keep claiming that this is true without actually doing the experiments.

And people believe it! Sad, sad people in this world.

(sigh) Apparently can't read. WE HAVE DONE THIS ANALYSIS AND ARE ACTIVELY USING THE RESULTS TO DEPLOY LEAD ACID BATTERIES IN OUR PRODUCTS WITH *20* YEAR LIFESPANS.

You, too, can get any sort of results you desire (want to know how charging current at a particular temperature affects battery life? or, number of discharge cycles to 13% capacity?).

But, you expect it to be sitting on a web site "for free".

Sad, sad person.

[dicky96]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

Strangely I never thought that batteries die in warm climates - coming form the North West of the UK I can guarentee that whenever my car battery died it would be because it was bloody freezing. In summer they seemed to work just fine.

Never having to scrape ice off my windscreen again or waiting for the heaters to warm so I can actually see out of the windscreen is something that I do not miss!

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

Strangely I never thought that batteries die in warm climates - coming form the North West of the UK I can guarentee that whenever my car battery died it would be because it was bloody freezing. In summer they seemed to work just fine.

There's a difference between a "warm" climate and a "hot" climate. We often have over 100 days at or above 100F. Batteries die predicatably faster. Rubber tires wear out faster. Roofs fail (develop leaks) in less time. Paint fades at an accelerated rate. etc.

It's pointless for manufacturers (of starter batteries) to try to develop batteries that last longer as the cost/inconvenience of replacing them isn't a big issue when you can do so WITHOUT the discomfort of being stuck in the snow!

And, as most of a battery can be reclaimed during recycling (prohibited to discard them), the manufacturer isn't having to "make new product from scratch" so can tolerate the higher return rate and still make money.

Never having to scrape ice off my windscreen again or waiting for the heaters to warm so I can actually see out of the windscreen is something that I do not miss!

I don't mind the snow/ice and, sort of, miss it. (it was always fun to dig out the snow blower). But, I was in the position of not HAVING to drive in inclement weather; I could just stay home and watch everyone else struggle with it!

[My coldest day was -26F with a wind chill of -83F; my warmest, 117F. Amusing to see exactly a 200F spread, there!]

What I "don't miss" are the grey, overcast skies (we have a handful of "not sunny" days each year) and the absence of true darkness at night.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

I've had car batteries die outside of winter - mechanical failure which shows that you never know when they fail. In fact I've never replaced a battery in the dead of winter, by chance. And though it gets fairly cold during the winter, thinking that batteries are affected by wind chill is ludicrous. On the other hand higher humidity in the air during the summer should reduce evaporation, extending battery life to an extent. Alas this is just speculation.

Of course the batteries that fail in temperature controlled, non cyclic environments won't follow this pattern. Most of these were probably due to abuse than anything else. It also seems that leaving lead acid batteries charged and disconnected also increases cycle longevity for standby use (versus constant trickle charging), alas this doesn't work well for ensuring the batteries are fully charged at time of need, and increases switchover time when an emergency arises.

Kind of funny that any studies, if there are any, aren't put to good use. I know that there are data centers that swap out battery packs every two years to ensure they don't get a failure during a power outage even if they never experience one. If there truly were studies that clearly indicate life extension by dilution to get batteries that guarantee life consistency for 5 years (ignoring the 20 years some people have gotten at AT&T during their testing), wouldn't that be a great product? Ahh too bad these are actually cheaper to make as they don't contain as much acid? Rather not have a separate SKU and just have more repeat business every two years...

Perhaps LiFePO4 cells will now get people to productize long life lead acid packs if there really is a significant advantage to dilution. We shall see (or most likely, not.)

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

Kind of funny that any studies, if there are any, aren't put to good use. I know that there are data centers that swap out battery packs every two years to ensure they don't get a failure during a power outage even if they never experience one. If there truly were studies that clearly indicate life extension by dilution to get batteries that guarantee life consistency for 5 years (ignoring the 20 years some people have gotten at AT&T during their testing), wouldn't that be a great product? Ahh too bad these are actually cheaper to make as they don't contain as much acid? Rather not have a separate SKU and just have more repeat business every two years...

The cost of a battery is not driven by the amount of acid in the electrolyte. Do the research instead of speculating idly. There are also OTHER FACTORS that go into making a long life battery -- something you'd learn if you'd invested the time/money/effort to expore that issue! :>

You do realize that this sort of information has value? And, costs money to accumulate? Why would someone want to give it away -- to their competitors -- when having it gives them a competitive advantage?

(Note that NDAs work both ways; I can force a vendor not to disclose the specifications for a component that they manufacture FOR ME. I can also USE that component in ways that I hold as Trade Secret and thereby deprive even the component vendor from knowing/disclosing)

Sad, sad person. Clearly looking for VALUABLE INFORMATION without having to spend a penny of your money or time to acquire it. Good luck in your search! Fool.

[dicky96]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

What I "don't miss" are the grey, overcast skies (we have a handful of "not sunny" days each year) and the absence of true darkness at night.

Now that I can totally agree with - I hated that in the UK, going for days or even weeks without ever seeing the sun, and days in the winter when it can't even be arsed to come light properly!

We also get a few 'non-sunny' days a year here, but they are not dark and overcast - just high cloud.

Our climate is not as hot as yours, yes we get days over 100F (35C) but only when it is a heatwave. Our average temperature only varies by about 6C (10F) midwinter to midsummer and interestingly also varies by about 6C (10F) daily high to nighttime low.

https://www.accuweather.com/en/es/pl...1617?year=2020

https://www.holiday-weather.com/play...gles/averages/

Would you call that warm climate or hot climate?

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

Now that I can totally agree with - I hated that in the UK, going for days or even weeks without ever seeing the sun, and days in the winter when it can't even be arsed to come light properly!

Anyone who is a "transplant" to this region has the same things to say regarding the lack of that "dreary overcast" that is so common, elsewhere. It has (had!) a pronounced affect on your mental outlook -- even if you didn't notice it, at the time (because *it* was "Normal").

And, none of those days where it just drizzles for 10 hours; if you're gong to rain, then RAIN!

Amusingly, when I first moved here, I thought most folks "daft" as they'd drop everything and WATCH it rain. "Sheesh! It's JUST RAIN!!" The idea of watching it rain YET AGAIN in most other places is just silly. But, here, it truly is a joyous experience. And, folks don't cringe indoors from the rain (of course, it isn't a cold, "damp" rain, either!) but welcome it.

We also get a few 'non-sunny' days a year here, but they are not dark and overcast - just high cloud.

We will have thick clod cover during Monsoon season, at times. But, this usually evolves into a "good" rain and then clears.

If we have several days with heavy cloud cover that DON'T produce rain, then folks tend to get irritable.

Our climate is not as hot as yours, yes we get days over 100F (35C) but only when it is a heatwave. Our average temperature only varies by about 6C (10F) midwinter to midsummer and interestingly also varies by about 6C (10F) daily high to nighttime low.

We'll see ~20 days above 100F in September, alone. And, this is when things are cooling off! Every day in August was above 105F, 8 of those above 110F. Five days in July BELOW 100F but 20 above 105 (113 being the highest that month). June was roughly the same -- though the high was only 111. Our first 100F day was in April...

Would you call that warm climate or hot climate?

Personally, I'd probably say "mild". You're hi-lo variations over the course of a day are pretty small -- 15F? No dount a consequence of the ocean's thermal mass. We typically see twice that (e.g., it is 71F at ~5A and we'll probably be 100F later today as it's starting to cool down). It is not uncommon for it to be 80-90F at midnight. I've never seen a winter night colder than 15F degrees -- and that was a fluke (we typically only have ~5 nights below freezing, annually -- maybe 28F -- and only for short periods of time). Winter daytime highs will be 70-80F.

[CapLeaker]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

so the solution is to return to what Jaguar and Rover used to do and fit a sealed battery box in the trunk.
most custom/performance shops sell battery boxes for this purpose.

btw, in europe most vans and the PT-cruiser all mount the battery under the seat inside the cabin.

so do some SUV's.

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

so do some SUV's.

There are several US vehicles that hide the battery in places other than "under the hood". But, the do so NOT to put it in a less hot environment but, rather, because there is a growing space shortage under the hood, nowadays.

One vehicle hides the battery behind the driver side wheel well in a little compartment.

[stj]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

which goes back to my comment about underhood plastic crap.

every kid puts a K&N filter on the throttle body,
car maker want to put a hose running to a bog box just because they hate to use a part that is standard rather than something custom to them.
i'm refering to air-filters that clamp to a round neck with that comment.

they often also draw air into those boxes through a downpipe into the wheel-well.
so when you hydrolock your engine driving through a deep puddle - remember this post!

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

which goes back to my comment about underhood plastic crap.

every kid puts a K&N filter on the throttle body,
car maker want to put a hose running to a bog box just because they hate to use a part that is standard rather than something custom to them.

When you are dealing with high volume products -- or high COST products -- there is an entirely different calculus that goes into your (design) decisions.

If I can save a few dollars by having a special jig/adapter/tool designed to build/test/repair a device, I'll have the tool designed and absorb the cost for (having someone) do that design.

Likewise, if I need a special part made to accommodate some aspect of the design, there's no reason NOT to specify it -- and count on one of my suppliers to provide it for a price that is just above their cost.

If the end user is inconvenienced by this (or price-gouged), a secondary market will appear that will address his needs at a price that THEY feel the user will bear.

The worst possible market is low volume, high cost, low price. There, you can't be too cavalier about what you do.

I interviewed a bunch of visually impaired individuals some time ago regarding design criteria for products targeting their market. One guy made a comment: "Don't make it look blind!" I had no idea what he meant so asked him to explain.

His complaint was that most products for him were pretty blah in appearance. Nothing beyond "functional". He took it as insulting -- as if the manufacturers (all of them!) were saying, "Hey, you can't see it -- what do YOU care what it looks like?"). "Why can't we/I have 'sexy' products with sleek curves, etc.? This (pointing to a device that he was using) SCREAMS 'This guy is blind!'"

I pointed out that the manufacturers had, undoubtedly, used off-the-shelf enclosures -- possibly painted or adorned with stickers -- to save on the cost of having a custom enclosure designed and fabricated for THAT product.

"Well, they do it for SIGHTED products, so why not ours?"

"Cuz they sell a shitload higher quantity into the sighted market than they do for yours! They can absorb the tens of kilobucks that it costs for that ONE mold in the cost of making tens or hundreds of thousands of units. They MIGHT sell a few thousand for YOUR market. And, likely have to spend time and money arguing with insurers who don't want to cover the complete cost of the product..."