Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

[eccerr0r]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

Testing the coil requires specialized hardware, known as a ring tester. I haven't seen many coils go bad however without some serious overheating. But it looks like you do have an LCR meter which should have a ring tester! If so, what's the Q on the windings (make sure you disconnect the output too!)

That is very weird that C2 didn't fix it, unless it too is leaky. Does your LCR meter report leakage? The effective parallel resistance needs to be higher than 20MΩ.

As I figured, you should be able to make a relaxation oscillator to test the DIACs https://www.androiderode.com/how-to-test-diac/ ... And yes this should oscillate without the transformer/inductor there! As long as the source voltage is higher than the breakover plus the SCR gate voltage, it should oscillate.

[stj]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

one of the diodes could be bad under load.

[stormy1777]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

ok, was curious if it is C2, and replaced with 100v@22uF, but still same symptoms, no light turns on when unit is energized to 220vac.

Here are more interesting findings relating to the coil:

1) When b1 and b2 connectors are disconnected to the COIL, the voltage is stable at 6VAC or jumping from 400mVDC to 1.2VDC.

2) when b1 & b2 are connected from main board to coil, the voltage drops to 0.4VAC, or 0.04VDC, which is basically ZERO... it drops compared when the coil is not connected to main board.

3) Testing the coil with RESISTOR mode in DMM, shows 0.003 ohm or something very low, just pullged to the B1 & b2 wires..

is it possible to coil is somehow shorted?? I have no experience with such things, but that's what logic tells me

will need to find more time to research this but thought to update all those wonderful curious folks who showed interest

Stormy.

[redwire]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

Oh it's a 220VAC powered European version
Here in North America, there is no hot+neutral at 220VAC, how is the fencer then grounded?

About 5 second pulses and 330VDC on the main cap.

If C2 was leaky, the SCR/DIAC would never trigger and just remain off?

I think the main cap C1 16uF 400V might be low value or open. OP is measuring only around 50V on the DC bus, not 330V yet the big resistors are not burning up. He might be measuring mains pulsing DC (AC ripple) everywhere if C1 is low value.
*OP, note C1 is dangerous and there is a shock hazard if it holds a charge. I would check voltage with a multimeter to make sure it's discharged before going near it to measure capacitance.

I tried a Spice simulation and it's kind of funny, the diac pulsed once and then the circuit just sat there doing nothing afterwards. This is with ST and Littelfuse models.
It appears to be saying the holding current of the DB3 diac keeps it on after triggering once. The SCR then stays off because it needs much more gate current to turn on.
In other words, the diac turns on and stays on forever from the steady uA's available from the 2MEG resistor. Holding current spec for DB3 I couldn't find.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

Might be a measurement problem, RMS voltage, etc. If it were really 50V, the two 10W resistors would be roasting or roasted in the past to burn open.

As for testing the DB3 I don't think most people have equipment to test these things. Need a curve tracer or perhaps a high voltage (~ 50V) zener tester and see if it (correctly) shorts out when the breakover voltage is met.

Provided the resistors haven't decreased in value, I can't see how the DB3 could fry.

I still vote for leaky C2.

[R_J]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

I was just reviewing and I don't see if you ever measured the resistance of those two 360Ω 10 watt resistors.
You seem to have 230vac going into each end but only 50vac coming out the other ends

[eccerr0r]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

Never build RC timers with electrolytic capacitors... at least if you want repeatability.

Now that you're forced to have one, choose least leaky capacitors. I'd say you should definitely use 100V cap there, using a 50V cap there is kind of worrisome especially with that R6 there; 100V caps hopefully are less leaky which helps even more.

[budm]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

I have a feeling that the 22Uf cap may have leakage resistance so the Voltage never rise up high enough (the charging resistor is 2.2M) for DIAC to come on, or that 2M is way above 2M. It is just timing cap so you can use 22/100V.
BTW, you can also check the DC V between the two legs of that 22uF cap to see how high it goes up to.

[stormy1777]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

R_J,
regarding: " 3) pulled the SCR and tested with volt trigger, volt drop ~0.75"

I pulled SCR out, and tested as per videos showing to do very similar to what eccerr0r explains, but without a light source, just DMM, and tapped the GATE tip; DMM in diode mode, it showed 0.75 Voltage drop once triggered.. removing contact it went to zero, again triggering it jumped to 0.75Volt drop, and reversing black/red did not do the same thing, so I think the SCR is OK, but as other tests will proceed, I'm open to doing what eccerr0r suggested!

As for C2, that was my *initial* thought (naively thinking, hey that little capacitor must be tired next to all these other tough and some massive components); pulled it FIRST, testing via 2 testers shows 22uF, so on-paper, it shows OK, but i'm willing to go with this hunch, after all, I did not go to badcaps for no reason Maybe under real load it doesn't hold the specs.

The only thing, on-hand i can only find 33uF@50V, or 22uF@100V, so I'm suspecting to go with the 22uF@100V and hope that is OK, otherwise i may need to search/order that 22/50v...

I'll do more testing as promised/time permits and report back.
Stormy.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

I was guessing C2 as bad as if it were leaky it could also never trigger...but that would somewhat be a wild guess.

It is worth to test if the SCR is still good. If you have a 12V PSU, a small 12V light bulb (NOT SMPS LED), and a 1K resistor you could do a simple test:

Connect PSU+ -> anode of SCR
cathode of SCR -> Light bulb contact 1
Light bulb contact 2 -> PSU-

Light bulb should remain OFF.

Then touch the gate of the SCR through the 1K resistor to PSU+ momentarily.

Light bulb should turn on and stay on.

If this is the case, the SCR is probably good.

[R_J]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

Are you sure the SCR is any good? I still don't understand the reading you gave earlier in post#1, 3)

[eccerr0r]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

How about this guess: replace C2, seems this could cause it to no longer oscillate.

Maybe this is a badcaps problem after all?

[stormy1777]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

Friends -
I'm TOUCHED by the show of attention and good energies, thanks for the schematics, so much talent.. I hope not to disappoint from my end.. too bad cannot EDIT existing POSTS..

I let the system idle for ~1-2 minute before testing, to let things charge up, indeed one can see the voltage climb up, until reaches stable levels (e.g. the vdc50, and 30vdc)

I think there's a thin/grease/film on the back of the board which sometimes causes testing appear different, in any event managed to get good reading from point #34 to #6 and #13 as ~34VDC.. here is an updated list:

1) from 1->8 => 230vac all the way through to 32->26 = ~230vac!

2) From 33->27 => ~50VAC.

3) from 27->22 => ~50VAC.

4) From (27, 34)-> (4, 5, 6, 13) = 36VDC (stable)

5) From 31->15 -> 0.6VDC (testing AC shows as 6VAC) maybe this changes when "triggered"

6) From 34, 35 -> (14,19) = 30VDC (stable)

7) From 36-> 14 => 0.6VDC !??!?? I'm not sure if this is expected??

NOTE on (7): Testing this Diode (D5) in-circuit, black wire on Pin#36 (Cathode) and Red on Pin#35 (Anode) shows 0.55V on DMM, reversing the wires shows "OL", so i think that is OK, maybe need to test this out of circuit??

Not sure if that voltage drop is expected, just going over this diode drops a lot.


Another interesting finding:

8) From 35-> 24 => 27-30VDC

9) From 35->23 => close to zero???!!

NOTE on (9): That is the DIAC marked D3, not sure how/what part it plays in the "triggering", but still I'll try to find time to test this out of circuit and report back.

any other ideas welcomed.
Stormy.

[redwire]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

It works out to 10 seconds between pulses.
22uF and 2MEG, with 165V DC bus and 32V diac trigger.

[redwire]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

I drew a schematic, instead of cleaning my house. Not all part values known but this should help figuring out things.

It looks like a slow relaxation oscillator making pulsed DC.
The transformer back-emf shuts off the SCR, so not possible to use a light bulb in place of the HV transformer to test things.

[R_J]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

I made a schematic, I think it is correct

[R_J]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

The reading you gave me don't make sense, point 27 and 34 are the same trace, so between #6 and #27 you get 30 vdc stable. but between #6 and #34 "dc jumps all over the place"?
that tells me there is a break in the circuit between point 27 and 34

[petehall347]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

digital multi-meters blow up testing voltages that can jump large gaps ... expensive mistake that was for sure ..
coils can be tested on ohms for go no go testing .. not 100 percent test but fairly close . need to find data on the coil if possible .
am thinking the capacitor needs to charge before anything happens . then it gets discharged quickly . wish i could help more still have one in bits from a few years back

[stormy1777]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

Petehall347:

looks a bit bit like a cdi automotive ignition .

what does that tell u? any clues how to debug or weakness of that system?

I'm trying to see if the "coil" board can somehow be tested separately, with DC/AC power source, but not sure what/how to drive that

As for right tools to measure voltage, I'm using a multi-meter, eager to learn if any other tool is needed, I'll be glad to invest in that..

Stormy

[stormy1777]

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock

R_J,
Thanks!! ok, will measure DC.. Is it DC from that moment on?

so I get:
1) From 27-> (4, 5, 6, 13) = 36VDC (stable)

I was thinking to myself, wouldn't it cool if there was some "Emulator" that one would plug such a circuit board, and it would just tell u all the voltages between all points, and u can quickly find the culprit, it sounds like a doable thing, maybe it exists ?

I'll be honest, not sure how to proceed with these volt checks, if in DC or AC

for example:

From 34-> 6 = 8VAC (dc jumps all over the place, 500 and down to zero)

does the "coil" board run on DC? maybe i can test it with a separate DC power supply?

Any tips welcomed.

Stormy.