Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

[Spork Schivago]

Hello,

How important is it to keep CAT6, CAT3 and RG6 separated when running them from an upstairs bedroom to the basement? One side of the room, they go up through the wall, into the attic, then they go by the floor joists to the other side and run down the other side of the wall.

I already ran the RG6 to the basement and got the CAT3 and CAT6 through the attic and ready to be ran through the floor joists in the room, down to the first floor, and finally into the basement. Can I just run them all together or do I need to keep them isolated as best as possible? I can't really use conduit, not without doing a lot of work. The RG6 is pretty good stuff, it's quad shielded.

I'm worried about interference. We're having CAT3, CAT6 and RG6 on both sides of the room, so six wires total, for this room. Can I just bunch them all together and run them through the same holes or should I try and drill separate holes and run them separately? If so, that's going to be a good bit more amount of work....

[stj]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

i dont know what cat3 is,
RG6 is obsolete now tv is digital, you should use something double-screened like CT100

main rule is to keep any data / voice cables atleast 6" from any parallel power-cable runs.
otherwise you can get 60Hz hum on all your data by inductive coupling.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

i dont know what cat3 is,
RG6 is obsolete now tv is digital, you should use something double-screened like CT100

main rule is to keep any data / voice cables atleast 6" from any parallel power-cable runs.
otherwise you can get 60Hz hum on all your data by inductive coupling.

Cat3 is just telephone line. That's what we've always called it, at least. Cat3 and then 6P6C or 4P4C, whatever.

Damn it all. Is the WF100 and CT100 okay to use with cable? For some reason, I thought it was just satellite. I doubt I can take the coax back after running it. At least it's quad shielded.

I'll do my best to keep them at least 6" away, although at some places, it's going to be impossible. I won't have any issues with the RG6, CAT6 or CAT3 interfering with each other though?

This is the category 3 stuff:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/CE-TECH-1...C-WH/203715340

What do you guys use to run your telephone wires over there?

[stj]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

is your RG6 double-screened? and what with?
i dont know what you mean by quad shielded - usually you either have an outer braid, or an outerbraid over a copper foil wrap.
or on the cheap stuff, an aluminised plastic wrap.

[Uniballer]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

It's going to work fine. Most houses have pretty short cable runs if you put switches and so on in a reasonably central location. The cable and transmission specifications are so good that you can generally run the next service level up if you are not near the distance limits (e.g. 55 meters of Cat3 could often run 100baseTX).

Prior to EIA/TIA-568, early 10baseT installations frequently had one ethernet signal and one or two analog telephone signals in the same cable. That would be considered a Very Bad Idea (tm) today, but it worked OK. If you are really worried about putting the ethernet and telephone signals close together then make sure the RG6 is between them.

RG6 will still work fine for TV or FM signal distribution.

If you wind up running cables in cold air return ducts then I recommend using plenum grade cable.

[ant3202]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

as long away from power lines.... is fine......

one example ... singapore housing flats apartments....

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

is your RG6 double-screened? and what with?
i dont know what you mean by quad shielded - usually you either have an outer braid, or an outerbraid over a copper foil wrap.
or on the cheap stuff, an aluminised plastic wrap.

Not sure what you mean by double-screened. I'm thinking maybe this is one of those language barrier type things. For example, maybe where you're from, you call it double-screened, but up here, we call it dual-shielded.

Here's a picture of what the quad-shield looks like:

http://d2ydh70d4b5xgv.cloudfront.net...9fe2ffe740.jpg

It just has four layers of shielding. Two are the foil wrap, two are the braids.
This is the RG6U we own:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire...8445/202316309

I believe it's 18-gauge.


For the electrical wires, we're not running directly against them, but there's a good chance the cat 6, cat 3 or coax cross over a line here or there. The only way for me to guarantee they don't would be to tear down a wall, which I really don't want to do. I've tried my best to make sure there's no electrical lines crossing anywhere where I can prevent it. It'd just be between the wall and maybe one spot in the attic, if that. And it'd just be crossing over.

So, do you think it's safe to run the coax, cat 3 and cat 6 all through the same holes that I've drilled? It's going to be really hard keeping those separate otherwise Stj. In the floor joists, the drills with the bits are just too big to get down in there, I really only have one spot to drill a hole. I drilled it, but drilling other holes would require another drill...

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

It's going to work fine. Most houses have pretty short cable runs if you put switches and so on in a reasonably central location. The cable and transmission specifications are so good that you can generally run the next service level up if you are not near the distance limits (e.g. 55 meters of Cat3 could often run 100baseTX).

Prior to EIA/TIA-568, early 10baseT installations frequently had one ethernet signal and one or two analog telephone signals in the same cable. That would be considered a Very Bad Idea (tm) today, but it worked OK. If you are really worried about putting the ethernet and telephone signals close together then make sure the RG6 is between them.

RG6 will still work fine for TV or FM signal distribution.

If you wind up running cables in cold air return ducts then I recommend using plenum grade cable.

Thank you. I do run them next to a cold air return on the first floor, but actually through a cold air return upstairs and down in the basement. How do I tell if the wires are plenum grade cables and why do you recommend using plenum grade cable?

I'd also like to add, where I'm running them through the cold air return, they just turned the joists into the duct work, there's no metal there. I'm not actually drilling through any metal and running it, just through the wood. Would this still require the plenum grade cable?


So, there is a chance for interference between the telephone and cat 6 because they're not shielded? I'm running the first sets maybe 50 feet (roughly 15.25 meters). The second set, maybe 30 feet (roughly 9.1 meters).

Is there going to be any trouble running the next set of cat 3 and cat 6 along side the first set? If so, I was thinking it might be possible to drill a second hole and run one group (cat 3, cat 6, and rg6u) seperately from the second group. To bad I didn't have one of those fancy testers that could test the cat 6 and the cat 3. I could test them at the same time and see if there's any interference. Thanks for the input.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

as long away from power lines.... is fine......

one example ... singapore housing flats apartments....

Right now, it's probably more than likely crossing in the wall, like an X. The power line runs up through the wall and the cat 6 and cat 3 more than likely cross over at least once there...I'm hoping that doesn't create that buzz Stj was talking about. In my parents house, when I ran speaker wire from the PC in the kitchen to the living room, we had that dreadful buzz. Down there though, it was going by a LOT!!!! of electrical wires.

[delaware74b]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

Plenum-rated cables are those that cause low smoke and low toxic gases when they catch fire (either internal or external). The cables are also required to self-extinguish once the source of ignition is removed. Plenum-rated cables cost about 2x the amount riser-grade cables. Big-box stores do not stock plenum cables.

Plenum-rated cables are required in commercial air-handling areas. By code, you are no longer allowed to place any line-powered wiring or devices in an air handling areas. Air handling areas apply to both supply and return ducts, wall cavities being used as a supply or return. For example, a shopping mall may have no return ducts above their drop ceilings (usually to save money). The entire area above the ceiling is the return duct. There are usually openings between stores (with fire doors in them) for roof-top units that service more than 1 store. No non-metallic cable allowed for power. All low voltage (CATV, LAN, etc) must be plenum-rated or placed in EMT for the entire path through the ceiling.

I hope this explains the plenum-rated cables. You can use a short piece of EMT inside the return duct as long as you seal the holes for the EMT. Slide your data/tv cable through the EMT and you meet the requirements for plenum-grade installation.

CAT3 for phone? I haven't used that in 10 years. CAT5 is the only thing I run. You also get the capability to have 4 phone lines in a single CAT5 and you get better shielding from the number of twists in the CAT5.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

Plenum-rated cables are those that cause low smoke and low toxic gases when they catch fire (either internal or external). The cables are also required to self-extinguish once the source of ignition is removed. Plenum-rated cables cost about 2x the amount riser-grade cables. Big-box stores do not stock plenum cables.

Plenum-rated cables are required in commercial air-handling areas. By code, you are no longer allowed to place any line-powered wiring or devices in an air handling areas. Air handling areas apply to both supply and return ducts, wall cavities being used as a supply or return. For example, a shopping mall may have no return ducts above their drop ceilings (usually to save money). The entire area above the ceiling is the return duct. There are usually openings between stores (with fire doors in them) for roof-top units that service more than 1 store. No non-metallic cable allowed for power. All low voltage (CATV, LAN, etc) must be plenum-rated or placed in EMT for the entire path through the ceiling.

I hope this explains the plenum-rated cables. You can use a short piece of EMT inside the return duct as long as you seal the holes for the EMT. Slide your data/tv cable through the EMT and you meet the requirements for plenum-grade installation.

CAT3 for phone? I haven't used that in 10 years. CAT5 is the only thing I run. You also get the capability to have 4 phone lines in a single CAT5 and you get better shielding from the number of twists in the CAT5.

Thank you, that was very helpful. Is there any grandfather clauses or anything? When the people converted that one floor joist into a cold air return, there's electrical wires running through the floor joist.

The one in the basement also has electrical wires running through. I highly doubt those wires are up to code. I thought in basements, we needed special electrical wire, rated for basements and crawl spaces. Not the normal stuff you normally have upstairs connected to the light switches, etc.

I will start looking for the EMT and pull my cables that I ran back out (just up to the return) to protect them. What you said makes a lot of sense.

I knew about using CAT 5 for phone and for some reason, just went with the cat 3. I can have up to 3 lines with this cat 3. I can see how I'd run a different telephone number to different phones and everything, but do they make telephones that can handle three numbers at once? You know what I'm saying? For example, if I had three telephone numbers, one for the fax machine, one for the business, one for the house, do they make telephones that could handle all three? When someone called the fax machine number, the telephone would ring. When someone called the house number, the same telephone would ring, etc. Right now, for fax, we use the free google voice and just forward it to our house number and then use distinctive ring so the fax machine knows to pick up instead of the answering machine.

Thanks!

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

Does this look like the stuff I would want? I think I'd be able to get everything in there...also, I'd actually want to somehow try to slide it into the holes in the floor joists or would just having it sit between the floor joists be okay?

From reading your post, I'm thinking I cut the EMT so it fits snuggly on the floor joist and then try to seal around it. This is going to be a problem though, because I not only drill through the floor joist where the cold air return is and run the wire into it, but I also drill down inside that cold air return floor joists and run the wire through the ceiling there.

On the next floor down, there's an actual cold air return ductwork and these wires run _behind_ that ductwork, not through the ductwork. I'm going to have to find some sort of bended EMT or some sort of elbow to use there to make some short 90 degree piece.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

Here's the wires that I can see, from the cold air return they installed upstairs. These worry me, but I'm sure there's more under the hallway that I cannot see.

The cold air return is right by the hallway. If there was ever a fire down there, the air would fuel the fire and we probably wouldn't be able to get down stairs using the stairway. We'd have to jump out the window. Because this house uses bridging instead of blocking, they used this ThermOpan shiny stuff to block off the rest of the run, but I don't like those electrical wires there. If there was a fire there, nothing would prevent the air from getting to them and it'd go wild.

We'd probably have to break through the wall at night to get into the baby's room and jump out the window. I don't see any junction boxes right there. I should definitely find someway to add that EMT conduit to those electrical lines, right? They're 120VAC. Or would the circuit breakers prevent a fire and we be okay there?

I'm going to upgrade the electrical panel eventually and I think I'm going to go for the arc fault and ground fault circuit interrupting breakers, instead of just the GFCI type breakers.

[stj]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

get a few carbon-dioxide extinguishers - one for each floor.

no point worrying about how flamable your cable insulation is when your in a wooden building!

[goontron]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

Right now, it's probably more than likely crossing in the wall, like an X. The power line runs up through the wall and the cat 6 and cat 3 more than likely cross over at least once there...I'm hoping that doesn't create that buzz Stj was talking about. In my parents house, when I ran speaker wire from the PC in the kitchen to the living room, we had that dreadful buzz. Down there though, it was going by a LOT!!!! of electrical wires.

At least in the US, the cable backhauls carry voltage at 90v @ 60hz. Not much interference to be had. imo.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

get a few carbon-dioxide extinguishers - one for each floor.

no point worrying about how flamable your cable insulation is when your in a wooden building!

I think being in a wooden building would be more reason to worry about how flammable your insulation, etc are. Imagine, if you will, if I improperly installed something and it heated up and caught fire. If it was insulated, hopefully, the fire would go out. But if it wasn't, the whole house would burn down! That'd be horrible!!!

And thanks Stj. My mind hasn't been working lately. We got fire extinguishers. In this area, we couldn't purchase the house unless the owners left one for each floor and carbon monoxide / smoke detectors per each floor. They just left them all in the basement (which counted as being okay, a little weird if you ask me!) I'll just move one upstairs but I still want to insulate the wires that I'm running at least with EMT.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

So, instead of the metal stuff, we got EMT coil. It's a hard plastic. I think this will be fine. We also bought some fire block gel spray. I know the metal stuff would have been better, but the Home Depot guy said the plastic stuff should work just as well and it was much, much cheaper.

If I absolutely cannot use it, I'll return it and buy the metal tubing and all the ends, etc.

[Uniballer]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

So, instead of the metal stuff, we got EMT coil. It's a hard plastic.

I think you probably bought ENT (aka smurf tube). Not plenum rated.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

It's blue, like Smurfs Uniballer. Damn it all! I got horrible eye site and I read it as EMT Coil. My wife just came in and said no, it's ENT coil. This is it:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-...-025/202688856

And it won't work at all, will it? What about just covering the cables with that fireblock foam spray we bought? Would that be okay?

Here's a link to the fire block:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/GREAT-STU...3992/207077797


If this doesn't work, I'm going to have to put this off until I get more money. We need a lot of 90 degree elbows and different size conduit. I'm keeping the CAT6 seperated from the rest. So, two lines for CAT 6, then I'm running the two telephone lines (cat 3) and the two coaxes together.

So, that's one conduit for one of the CAT 6, one conduit for the other CAT 6, one conduit for the two CAT 3's and RG6U. Then I have to do it all over down in the basement. The elbows add up real quick like. I figure for just one cable upstairs, I need 4 elbows. For the basement, I need I think just one elbow per conduit. That's what? 15 elbows. The ethernet ones, I was going to use the smaller conduit because it's cheaper. There's also those clamps I'd need to purchase as well.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

Damn it all, the fireblock isn't good either. It's just designed to prevent airflow but isn't actually fire resistant or anything. For that, the all power Google recommends some product by 3M. Looks like we're purchasing the 90 degree elbows and the conduit. Thanks for the help guys!