Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

[thespeakerport]

Hello Badcaps community...

This is my first post; hope I am dropping it in the right area. I apologies for being a bit long winded, but I am not sure how to go about explaining this any better....

I have started a audio repair/restoration side business and frequently, I am running into an issue I am not sure how to resolve. When working on older stereo receivers, the original service manuals do not always tell you what specific types of capacitors are used . For instance, I have a Yamaha CR-420 I am working on now. The majority of the electrolytic caps are one color (light blue). But then there are some that are dark blue, black, orange. (I am specifically referring to just the electrolytic caps). The Service Manual lists all it's caps as "Electrolytic Capacitor Vert." However some also have RB, TS or MS (which I have no clue what they mean and there is no legend for it.) My main question is if there a way to look at a cap and tell what type of cap it is. IOW....'Standard' vs low leakage vs low ESR vs low impedance, etc. I have a basic cap tester that will give me an ESR and capacitance reading....just not sure how to test for low-leakage. So service manuals flat out say if a cap is low leakage, but not in this case. To make it even more confusing, this particular receive has a number of 1uF, 50V caps....so are light blue, some are dark blue. If they used different brands for different values, I can see why they would be different, but you would assume if it was the exact same value, it should be the same exact cap...and it is not. This tells me SOMETHING is different about the two. If there any way to look at a cap or cross reference it against some mystery database that will tell me what spec it is?

[budm]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

The color of the shrink tubings used on the cap do mean mean anything, the manufacturer can use the color to easily separate the series of the caps without looking at the printing on the cap. There should be other printing on the caps beside the uF and the Voltage rating. The 'RB, TS or MS' are likely the capacitor series.
You cannot go wrong with good brand caps such as PANASONIC FM/FR/FC series for the replacement. The technology has improved a lot since when those YAMAHAs were made.
There is no switching those power supply which require to use LOW ESR (Low Z) cap, but you can use LOW ESR without problem. The current leakage of the coupling caps you will want it to be as low as possible so it will not affect the bias between the stages, especially at the input of the power amp section.

[Khron]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

Once you read off the brand & series from the capacitor sleeving, all you have to do is google that, and chances are good you might come across a datasheet for that series of caps

Value & voltage rating aren't the only characteristics of eletrolytics...

[rhomanski]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

The rule of thumb for seventies caps is, sky blue, orange, and yellow use low leakage or low noise. All others use low impedance. I generally use Nichicons from Mouser because they stock them in almost any value you want. PW I use for general purpose, KL for audio path, EP for bipolar because it has a 105 degree rating.

You should replace all the electrolytic, they're 40 years old and pretty much done now. Replace the 2SA 726 transistors with KSA 992's, replace the 2SC 1313 transistors with KSC 1845. Those two are known to get noisy by now or will soon. Sometimes they fry themselves for no reason. I usually replace any with the black plaque on the legs. They usually have silver legs and have corroded massively by now. Sometimes the corrosion will go between the legs on the body. One thing I do is check the boards for running hot. Pioneer and Sansui were bad about that in the mid seventies. Usually I will form a solid 22 gauge in the shape of the copper runs and parallel them. Gives the currant an easier path and generates very little heat after that. I have seen some that cooked so long they were black.

Just some things I've noticed, YMMV.

[thespeakerport]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

Thanks guys...I really wish these service manuals were more complete. I am a big fan of Nichicon and Mouser is the Mecca for these parts. Thanks for the replacement part numbers on those transistors. I was not planning on messing with semiconductors on this particular unit, but they are cheap enough to replace so I will look for them and replace them accordingly. I will look into the PW and KL series Nichicon cap on Mouser's site; personally, I have chosen the KT's and KW's as they seem to have a very wide range of values in the audio application series and are cost effective. (I am sure they are certainly better than what they used 40 yrs ago!)

There have been some systems who's service manuals specifically call out Low Leakage caps. I did not consider that the remaining ones would be low ESR. Now I am sure you can probably use a low ESR/LL in place of a 'general' cap, but I am not sure about using Low ESR/LL for everything across the board. Any other thoughts on what I could do?

[thespeakerport]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

Also...I have seen many posts suggest that a Low ESR cap is the same as Low Impedance. Yes, no...maybe?

[thespeakerport]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

Here are some photos of what I am looking at. You see that there are a number of el caps that are of unique color. There are some (gray and blue) that have the exact same value (1uf, 50V, 85degree). Sigh...

[stj]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

85' are general purpose crap.

[rhomanski]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

If it were mine, I would probably look up those orange in the manual to see what they are used for, maybe replace with UKL. The rest are all UPW.

When you get around to doing transistors, buy a cheap meter with HFE. Always check each one that comes out and each one you put in. Match the HFE as close as possible but mostly your checking the legs. The manufacturers have changed them over the years and you can't always trust the data sheet. I had one that didn't work after I finished it. Checked everything all looked good. I decided to pull the transistors and found the originals were ECB and since the new data sheet said they were BCE I just installed them backwards. My HFE meter said they were BEC. So not only did I have to put them in backwards, I had to swap two legs. I used a piece of nylon tubing to keep the legs from shorting. It works fine now, I use it all the time. I checked my bag and found both BCE and BEC. The newest ones I ordered were the BEC.

[thespeakerport]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

Ok...so I went through and broke these down by brand/series as best I could.

Orange caps: stamping: ELNA CERB (85 degree) 7D (U) ....these are for sure low leakage as I have identified the same ones used in a JVC receiver where they specifically called them out as L.L.

Light Blue: Matsushita/Panasonic CE -40~+85 degree....have no idea what a CE series is and have spent the morning trying to find out with no apparent luck.

Dark Blue: ELNA CEW (or CE-W...not sure) 85 degree; no other stamping...Other than it being an 'audio series' line....I can also find nothing really definitive here.

Large Power Blue Cap on Power Supply - Nichicon 470uF, 50V N7902L

Large Black main filter caps in PS - Another Elna CEW 85degree, but different color with these stampings: 6800uf, 35V 7N (F)

Plain Blue - Matsushita/Panasonic CE Series; 85degree (Two different colors for the same series??)

Gray - Elna CEW series again. 85degree with a 74 (T) stamping

Hope I am not making a bigger deal of this, but I just don't want to replace each 'type' with the correct one.

Also, can anyone tell me why when you look for replacement caps such as ones with Low ESR, Leakage and/or impedance, then are not necessary classified as Audio Grade when in fact these are being used in audio gear? For instance, if I want go on Mousers site and filter the caps for audio grade Nichicon's, none of the series listed are what you would get if I was to filter for Nichicon Low Leakage? Sorry for the million questions....just trying to get my head wrapped around all of this.

[budm]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

http://tech.juaneda.com/en/articles/...apacitors.html
https://cdn.badcaps-static.com/pdfs/...63fe7df7f0.pdf

And many more as you do the research, but the bottom line is up to what hear with your own ears.

[Khron]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

I kinda hate to be a bit of a downer, but... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

And for further reference part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvireu2SGZM

[thespeakerport]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

http://tech.juaneda.com/en/articles/...apacitors.html
https://cdn.badcaps-static.com/pdfs/...63fe7df7f0.pdf

And many more as you do the research, but the bottom line is up to what hear with your own ears.

Thanks Budm....in fact, I did come across these two sites but unfortunately, they really don't answer my question. What it does give is a really good overview of tests and perspectives given a particular set of caps that I do not have. Again, perhaps I am making this more complicated that I should, but I have to believe the manufacturer used different type of caps in these units for a reason. Or maybe they just pulled parts out of their back side because that is what they had available at the time. In any case, what I am ideally looking for is to simply find out what it is that I have based on the specs I can pull off from the caps themselves. Other than the low-leakage caps I was able to identify, I pulled out the various types of caps and measured the ESR, vLoss and capacitance and compared them to the Nichicon KT's I have in stock. What I found is that the KT's have a more exact capacitance value (expected) as well as lower ESR and vLoss than anything else I pulled off the board. I have some specific UKL's that I will replace the Elna CERB's with. I guess i'll continue to dig into the Elan CEW's and Matsushita/Panasonic CE's.

[thespeakerport]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

I kinda hate to be a bit of a downer, but... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

And for further reference part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvireu2SGZM

Thanks Khron....these look to be some outstanding educational video. They are long and would take some time to pull out the necessary information and apply it to my situation. In any case, thanks for bringing these to my attention.

[Khron]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

Sure thing, always great to spread (FACTUAL) knowledge

I clicked on budm's first link, and i saw (waaaay too much) "audiophool-ese", so i just "had to" try to bring things back to earth

Apart from the low-leakage caps there, i wouldn't worry too much about what particular series or type the rest are As long as they're from one of the very few reputable (Japanese) manufacturers, it's all good in my book

I've never been one to buy into the whole "for audio" mumbo-jumbo... See the first video for details

[rhomanski]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

They use different types because they are in business to make money and use the cheapest they can without affecting sound. The bean counters say justify why you want to use this expensive cap here. Well then use this cheaper one.

I'm working on 4 identical turntables right now. One has 4 bipolar capacitors in it, the newer one has 8. Obviously they had a problem with meeting the warranty and the fix was to put in a more expensive capacitor. I'll retrofit the older ones with more bipolars. The older also has an extra board in it, they eliminated it on the later versions. I've noticed it on a lot of units, they made changes throughout the two or four year production run. Making it cheaper as they went along. I presume they had a development team of engineers designing it then another team took over as they produced it. One made it work the other made it cheaper.

My advice still stands, unless you want to redesign it yourself. Also I would advise not to get caught up in the foolishness of audio grade capacitors. The extra cost doesn't mean much unless it just makes you feel better. All the music is recorded, processed, and manufactured on whatever medium, with regular general purpose capacitors. No professional equipment uses special capacitors or special op amps and neither should you. Just get good quality Nichicons and you'll be fine. They're 100% better than the originals we listened to back in 1972.

[thespeakerport]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

Appreciate the straight talk....So do you think I would be ok to use Nichicon's UKT's (that I already have) for everything and UKL's for the low leakage?

Regarding UKT's....it is not Nichicon's best. Problem I have is that their top of the line UKZ does not have all the capacitance values I will need for restorations however, the UFG/UKW and UFW's do to a certain degree. Would you recommend one of these over the KT's for 'general purpose', no low-leakage applications?

[thespeakerport]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

They use different types because they are in business to make money and use the cheapest they can without affecting sound. The bean counters say justify why you want to use this expensive cap here. Well then use this cheaper one.

I'm working on 4 identical turntables right now. One has 4 bipolar capacitors in it, the newer one has 8. Obviously they had a problem with meeting the warranty and the fix was to put in a more expensive capacitor. I'll retrofit the older ones with more bipolars. The older also has an extra board in it, they eliminated it on the later versions. I've noticed it on a lot of units, they made changes throughout the two or four year production run. Making it cheaper as they went along. I presume they had a development team of engineers designing it then another team took over as they produced it. One made it work the other made it cheaper.

My advice still stands, unless you want to redesign it yourself. Also I would advise not to get caught up in the foolishness of audio grade capacitors. The extra cost doesn't mean much unless it just makes you feel better. All the music is recorded, processed, and manufactured on whatever medium, with regular general purpose capacitors. No professional equipment uses special capacitors or special op amps and neither should you. Just get good quality Nichicons and you'll be fine. They're 100% better than the originals we listened to back in 1972.

This certainly makes sense to me. That you guys so much for the candid information. I shall move on and continue this restoration.

[Khron]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

Really, maybe apart from the low-leakage ones, don't sweat the whatever types/series the caps are

105C rated should be fine ("even" general-purpose series), and Rubycon / Panasonic / Elna / ChemiCon make good stuff too - Nichicon aren't the be-all-end-all

One thing to note, though, is that (monolithic) voltage regulators *might* not be 100% stable with (too) low-ESR caps on their output, especially considering they're relatively old-ish designs. So you might not wanna go too "crazy" on those, unless you enjoy risking oscillation - i wouldn't

[thespeakerport]

Re: Help differentiating/identifying capacitor types

No, definitely not looking to go nuts on this. I have gravitated to Nichicon's not because I think they are the best; I have been using them because (at least with the KT series), they were really well priced (from Mouser) and they had the most combinations of capacities and voltages for my needs. If at all possible, I wanted to avoid having different brands/series of caps in a single system unless it was absolutely necessary. In some situations, that is not possible or potentially not wanted...but I have not come across any of those situations as of yet. Now you bring up something that I have wanted to ask. Up to this point, I have been selecting caps with 85degree ratings simply because that matches what was originally used in the application. I know you can put in 105's in place of them, but what is that really buying you (besides the obvious higher temp capacity and longer life at rated capacity?) Does the higher temp rating imply a lower ESR or impedance? I can say that looking for 105 degree caps significantly reduces the field of selection and can ramp the cost up; pretty significantly in some cases.